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A good breeder will inform someone of the temperments,activity levels and such and should screen people well. I evaluate my pups as if good SAR possible show or just pet grade. I have talked so many out of them as see these hounds on TV laying on porch and they think they like that. Tell em come to house once will show you a very active dog,not the drugged ones on TV. I warn people on all the faults and possibilities of what can go wrong. If people looking for pets mostly send to a rescue where find a abused dog that will be happy just getting the love and attention never had. I do know what mean with the field dogs though and if people research before look to buy it would help alot. Not all breeds meant for everyone, and if a person wants a specific breed us as breeders must educate as much as possible also. Can you imagine a high strung setter and such in a apartment they destroy place out of boredom. I got a English setter rescued from a friend she still gets her in woods hunt/play time but has pinched nerve so really got to watch her exercise levels.
What I hate is people going out spending good money on a quality dog then not train it for it's specialty and let sit in backyard on a chain.
I just had pup go this weekend man not read contract but wife who is owner did and he asked if could call or write with questions or updates. I EXPECT THAT.
I also like the fact she evaluated me as a breeder,references and such,looked at bloodlines so knew no line/inbreeding and such.
If this thread helps out 1 person from buying from a bad breeder it will be great and all the info in here helps us all,breeders,buyers, and just friends of someone who looking for a certain breed.
HEPCAT glad you brought up the buying for pet only as I was geared more towards my hounds and working breeds meant to work. Maybe can bring out more idea's here for those who want a registered breed but only for pets and questions should ask before buying them.
I'm a non breeder looking for my next dog and I'll tell you it's a war zone out there.
I've done my search on the 'net and have started visiting different breeds at events ect.
One of the problems I find is that breeders vary rarely compete in anything but confirmation, so now I'm trying to contact folks who actually own the breed I'm looking at and compete in rally/obedience and akc tracking.
So far the breed that fits my wants/needs/abilities is the Standard Schnauzer and I've been to one breeder and met their dogs and talked with one on the phone and will visit their home soon. I've also joined a yahoo group for the breed...very helpful to a point. Obviously, most are unwilling to "talk bad" about another breeder so digging out the info is hard.
In the end it's still a crap shoot and breeder guarantees are great but what do you do 3-5 years down the line when you've become attached and find your dog is that one in a million that has something wrong...You are still left hanging not only the initial cost but the time and emotions are also heartbreaking.
You do what anyone would do - you continue to love that dog with your whole heart.
Nothing in life is guaranteed - buying from a well respected breeder gives you good odds, but odds are what they are. Nothing is concrete - nothing says your dog won't develop cancer, blow a knee, whatever...but certifications give you a little bit of an edge with the lineage. Past that, it's like anything else in life - just a crap shoot.
If you listen closely, the same names will keep cropping up and I'd zero in on those. You're not necessarily looking for a show dog. Many times people in rescue will know of very good breeders - lots of rescue people are former COE breeders or have been or are in competitions.
I think you're doing your homework exactly right if you want to compete. Talk to the various entrants and find out the who, why, and where...and good luck to you!
Guarentee's are good for most,but have to watch also as some have 10 days 1 month 3 months and 1 year. Nobody can guarentee a dog for life as every situation is different. No breeder likes to talk bad about someone where out in open but if contact a few on phone or in person will open up more also. Breeders do try to keep the bad ones away but do not want to publicize and get involved in a slander case.
But if something does happen to a dog you have bought and you still love this animal as anyone should but can no longer care because of expenses breeder should take back and that is a question must ask. Will you be willing 5-10 years down line to take this animal you sold me back as cannot afford medical.
A good breeder will inform someone of the temperments,activity levels and such and should screen people well. I evaluate my pups as if good SAR possible show or just pet grade. I have talked so many out of them as see these hounds on TV laying on porch and they think they like that. Tell em come to house once will show you a very active dog,not the drugged ones on TV. I warn people on all the faults and possibilities of what can go wrong. If people looking for pets mostly send to a rescue where find a abused dog that will be happy just getting the love and attention never had. I do know what mean with the field dogs though and if people research before look to buy it would help alot. Not all breeds meant for everyone, and if a person wants a specific breed us as breeders must educate as much as possible also. Can you imagine a high strung setter and such in a apartment they destroy place out of boredom. I got a English setter rescued from a friend she still gets her in woods hunt/play time but has pinched nerve so really got to watch her exercise levels.
What I hate is people going out spending good money on a quality dog then not train it for it's specialty and let sit in backyard on a chain.
I just had pup go this weekend man not read contract but wife who is owner did and he asked if could call or write with questions or updates. I EXPECT THAT.
I also like the fact she evaluated me as a breeder,references and such,looked at bloodlines so knew no line/inbreeding and such.
If this thread helps out 1 person from buying from a bad breeder it will be great and all the info in here helps us all,breeders,buyers, and just friends of someone who looking for a certain breed.
HEPCAT glad you brought up the buying for pet only as I was geared more towards my hounds and working breeds meant to work. Maybe can bring out more idea's here for those who want a registered breed but only for pets and questions should ask before buying them.
Agree with everything you said...of course, some dogs from working lines can make fine pets, for the right person. It's just hard to explain to some people what it really means when you say the dog needs a "lot" of excercise. I have a bench-bred setter who is very active, but not nearly as active as a field setter. My breeder once had a field setter who was so birdy, she tore all the curtains off the windows trying to get outside...would bolt out the door every chance she got and run for miles. She eventually got hit by a car.
So many suburban families think that a walk around the block and a large fenced yard is enough for a working breed of dog...it makes me laugh. My setter can walk, run for MILES, and never seems to get tired. He gets bored/crazy without walking for miles, or very hard off leash runs. I can only imagine waht a field setter is like. My friends field bred Lab drives her nuts if she doesn't get out for a daily run. These dogs also need the mental stimulation of something to do.........it's not enough to be left outside with a few chew toys for hours. It's just hard to explain that to people; I met a woman at the park whose neighbor had "gotten rid of" their bloodhound, because it wasn't, as you said, a dog that would just lay around on the porch all day like in the movies.
I'm a non breeder looking for my next dog and I'll tell you it's a war zone out there.
I've done my search on the 'net and have started visiting different breeds at events ect.
One of the problems I find is that breeders vary rarely compete in anything but confirmation, so now I'm trying to contact folks who actually own the breed I'm looking at and compete in rally/obedience and akc tracking.
So far the breed that fits my wants/needs/abilities is the Standard Schnauzer and I've been to one breeder and met their dogs and talked with one on the phone and will visit their home soon. I've also joined a yahoo group for the breed...very helpful to a point. Obviously, most are unwilling to "talk bad" about another breeder so digging out the info is hard.
In the end it's still a crap shoot and breeder guarantees are great but what do you do 3-5 years down the line when you've become attached and find your dog is that one in a million that has something wrong...You are still left hanging not only the initial cost but the time and emotions are also heartbreaking.
From my stand point I find it really scary.
I think patience is the key...if you contact the breed club, you can find out where and when the shows are, and maybe attend one. Meet the breeders, and their dogs in person. I know what you are saying about confirmation...you are looking for a breeder who perhaps is breeding a more versatile dog. With some less common breeds, it is hard to find someone breeding performance dogs. You may have to travel out of state to find what you are looking for.
Keep in mind that different breeders may be breeding for different traits; it's important for you to find a breeder whose breeding program you agree with. I have always liked breeders who strive for an all around dog, getting titles in confirmation and some performance title; obedience, agility, etc. I also respect breeders who get a CGC on their confirmation champions before breeding them...it shows a committment to breeding dogs with good temperaments. I have a friend who owns standard poodles from a breeder that breeds many service dogs; the dogs temperament reflects her breeding program..smart, calm, stable, biddable.
There are never any guarantees with regards to genetic health problems...however, when you buy from a really good breeder, you have the piece of mind knowing that you have a far better chance of having a healthy dog than if you had simply bought your dog from a website over the internet. You also have to be realistic about the inherent problems with whatever breed you choose...for instance, I love Flat Coated Retrievers, but decided against the breed after much research because of their shorter lifespan; cancer is common in virtually all lines.
I think your best bet is to contact the breed club, and take it from there. Good luck with your research.
Backyard Breeders and PuppyMills are not even remotely related! They should never be referred to in the same reference.
What is often referred to as a backyard breeder in my experience has resulted in the absolutley best, most well tempered, loving, healthy, quality dogs.
If petshops stopped selling dogs it would take alot of the profits away from the puppy mills. Most cute puppies in the petshop window come from pupppy mills. At least that is what I've been told. Petshops should have "adoption" areas of "fixed" pets, and make their money off the supplies customers buy. If petshops made it really easy to get a pet, they would make a handsome profit off all the supplies they sell, and it would cut the demand so the puppy mills would hurt more, and ultimately go out of business. Petshops could go pickup pets from local "backyard breeders", and check on their surroundings, even take pictures, and get more involved. The stores should have a policy that if you can't care for the pet any longer, you can return it, so someone else can adopt it. (not everyone wants a puppy - some people are looking for older dogs.) Being able to tell if a breeder is good is really just simple common sense. If you can talk at length with the breeder, and SEE the litter, see the mom, the surroundings, the people who have been caring for the pets, and interacting with the animals, you'll get a really good sense of how much care these newborns have been given, and whether your potential new pet has been surrounded by love or stress. If the pet has been stressed, there's a higher risk of health and mental problems. (mental - including neurotic behavior, biting, agressiveness etc.) Most aggressive dogs are mean due to their "fear". If the pet has been in a healthy, clean, calm, loving, environment, where the mom has been well cared for, and they've had time to get good nourishment from Mom, they'll be off to a much better start. Backyard breeders are the only ones that can offer this approach. Nothing like a puppy mill, or large scale breeder.
Backyard Breeders and PuppyMills are not even remotely related! They should never be referred to in the same reference.
What is often referred to as a backyard breeder in my experience has resulted in the absolutley best, most well tempered, loving, healthy, quality dogs.
If petshops stopped selling dogs it would take alot of the profits away from the puppy mills. Most cute puppies in the petshop window come from pupppy mills. At least that is what I've been told. Petshops should have "adoption" areas of "fixed" pets, and make their money off the supplies customers buy. If petshops made it really easy to get a pet, they would make a handsome profit off all the supplies they sell, and it would cut the demand so the puppy mills would hurt more, and ultimately go out of business. Petshops could go pickup pets from local "backyard breeders", and check on their surroundings, even take pictures, and get more involved. The stores should have a policy that if you can't care for the pet any longer, you can return it, so someone else can adopt it. (not everyone wants a puppy - some people are looking for older dogs.) Being able to tell if a breeder is good is really just simple common sense. If you can talk at length with the breeder, and SEE the litter, see the mom, the surroundings, the people who have been caring for the pets, and interacting with the animals, you'll get a really good sense of how much care these newborns have been given, and whether your potential new pet has been surrounded by love or stress. If the pet has been stressed, there's a higher risk of health and mental problems. (mental - including neurotic behavior, biting, agressiveness etc.) Most aggressive dogs are mean due to their "fear". If the pet has been in a healthy, clean, calm, loving, environment, where the mom has been well cared for, and they've had time to get good nourishment from Mom, they'll be off to a much better start. Backyard breeders are the only ones that can offer this approach. Nothing like a puppy mill, or large scale breeder.
Backyard breeders are as bad, or worse, than puppy mills. They are one of the major contributors to pet overpopulation, and the tragic euthanization of over a million unwanted dogs each year. Backyard breeders breed for profit only...they are not breeding for the love of the breed, or to improve the breed. They are not breeding to preserve valuable working traits, like the poster dreamhunter, who is working hard to preserve the ability of SAR bloodhounds to save human lives. The are not breeding to a breed standard...if bybers were the only ones breeding dogs, eventually most "breeds" would be unrecognizable. I have seen bybers "Golden Retrievers", that look like Lab mixes; they were barely identifiable as Goldens. Back yard breeders also do not have a full understanding of the genetics of breeding, and do not properly screen their dogs for genetic health issues. Dogs from bybers often suffer from serious genetic health issues, including genetically based temperament problems, (aggresion, fearfullness, extreme dominance, resource guarding, etc.) Dogs from bybers often end up dumped in shelters once their owners realize they are totally unprepared to deal with expensive health problems or temperament problems.
Your statement that all you need is a clean, calm, "loving" environment to produce a quality dog is mildly infuriating to me. My cousin ended up with a unilateral deaf Dalmation puppy from a well-meaning neighbor who thought she could make some money breeding her Dalmation female to a friends male Dalmation. She had a "clean, calm, loving home". Eight puppies, one unilateral deaf pup my cousin took..seven bilateral, stone deaf puppies, which no one wanted, were euthanized. That is what a typical back yard breeder does.....contributes to the suffering of dogs, just to make a buck.
Thank you, dreamhunter, for posting this link. Very informative.
Hepcat - excellent post. I have a blind Rottweiler whose EYES HAD TO BE REMOVED from congenital glaucoma when he was 10 months old. He was having the equivalent of a migraine headache every day of his life due to pressure behind his eyes.
Holt wasn't born blind...it developed over 10 months...and when he was found to be blind he was cut loose by his owner at Johns Hopkins to fend for himself. Thank God for good Samaritans.
You can't tell me Holt came from a litter where someone was concerned about furthering the breed, or even knew the history of the male and female....and ya gotta wonder what happened to his siblings. They were probably part of the 1,000,000 euthanized.
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