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I am really desperate for some help. Maybe someone can tell me something that will work. And PLEASE-- no judgement from the "go to a breeder" contingent. This is about a rescue dog.
We adopted this dog about two months ago from a rescue. He was seized with other animals in a rural hoarding situation. He was tested with cats and kids and spent several months in a shelter. Exemplary behavior and became a shelter favorite who anyone could handle. He loves other dogs. He is a mutt, mostly a retriever but some other stuff in there-- GSD? Hound? Not a pit bull by the looks of it-- really looks like a smallish retriever. He is between 4 and 5 years old. House trained and came knowing "sit" and "shake" commands.
After settling in, he started with some strange behaviors. Aggressive barking and growling with anyone who came to the house-- postal carrier, friends. We kept him leashed when company came over and that helped. We called in a trainer as we were disturbed by what seemed to be escalation of his behavior with nipping. This was always directed at people who came into the house when we were not there like cleaners and dog walkers (we had a walker 2-3 days a week due to work schedule). We started keeping him crated and he nipped at the dogwalker as she was getting him out of the crate. We called a trainer who he bit. Twice. And drew blood. It got so bad that we just asked a friend to come over and let him out to pee-- this is a friend who is very experienced with dogs, calm, assertive, etc. He has met her several times and seems to really like her.
He has now attacked her twice without warning. Yesterday he bit through her heavy jacket and latched onto her arm leaving welts. She had to knock him pretty hard to get him to release. This was after he had sat quietly with her for over an hour, gotten pets and treats. The first time was more of a warning leap/lunge/nip and he had just gotten pets and treats and was behaving normally. I trust this person to notice the signs of a dog being uncomfortable and believe her when she said it came out of nowhere.
After the first nip with her (again he knows her. We practiced her letting him out before she came over solo. She has walked him before) we called a different very expensive and well regarded trainer who uses Syn Alia training method. The pup had a 3 hour session and we scheduled another. He did well. We practiced the techniques shown. For the first day after we saw some calmer behavior. And then it was back to his old practices, What is disturbing is that the biting is escalating. Now we have a bite and hold which certainly would have been very serious had our friend not been attired the way she was.
The dog behaves very well as long as we are home. He is smart. He is pleasant with our cats. He has been to the vet three times in 2 months to get a workup and see if there is any pain related cause to this. Nothing. He behaves on his leash. He is not dog aggressive and does well at the dog park.
My husband and I are both reasonably well informed about dogs. We had a dog (another mutt) who we loved very much that passed away a few years ago. We have not had one since. We have spent about $2K on this dog in vets, walkers, trainers, toys, calming treats and oils, etc since he has been with us. He is a nervous dog but very loving around us.
The rescue will euthanize him if we return him due to the bite risk. I am almost ready to do that. I can't stand to think about him hurting anyone seriously.
to be perfectly honest I believe the rescue knew this dog was a biter when they let you take him . this behavior had to have been displayed before you got this dog and honestly I have no answers for you as to what to do . That would be your decision but I do feel for you .Have any of these so called trainers given you any answers as to why this dog is behaving this way ?If not then I would be dumping them pronto because you need a trainer that has some kind of idea what is going on with this dog . I realize you have spent quite a bit of money on this dog and you might not have any choice other than to return him to the rescue . I think I would be so angry with the rescue because I have a feeling they lied to you and we had a friend who got a dog from a rescue and got sued because the dog bit a child and our friends asked specifically if this dog was a bite risk and the rescue lied . Good luck to you I hope you find a solution or someone on here who has a better suggestion .
Sounds like this dog needs behaviour management....... A friend of mine has a poodle and man sometimes he gets out of control!!! (Biting and whatnot and it hurts!!)
Good luck..... If you have the money to get him some treatment you should try that before giving up.......
Sounds like this dog needs behaviour management....... A friend of mine has a poodle and man sometimes he gets out of control!!! (Biting and whatnot and it hurts!!)
Good luck..... If you have the money to get him some treatment you should try that before giving up.......
Thanks!
We are working with a behaviorist/trainer who we had a session with and there is another scheduled for early next week. This person is a speaker at many conferences, has written books and is highly sought after for dogs with aggression. Sessions are several hundred dollars a pop. But since the first session the bite and hold happened. He had NEVER done that before so its disturbing.
I don't know how much time we can spend. Our first grandchild is being born in late May and we had plans to stay with our daughter to help for two weeks. We had hoped to have a pet sitter but that won't happen. He may do well with kenneling or at least better than being at home, but even that is a risk. We can't cancel our trip-- our daughter would never forgive us. So we are running out of time. This has been two months of solid work thrown at this issue. And we understood that it was probably not great timing for the adoption of the dog, but he was slated to be put down unless the rescue could pull him into a home.
Initially it sounded like fear aggression, which one of my dogs has. But when you said that he nipped/bit someone he knew, AND after getting treats - I don't know. I still think it might be fear aggression (my dog HATES crates - we do not crate him so he can avoid feeling as though he is trapped (as in a hoarding and shelter experience).
With my dog, I worked hard to determine what his triggers are (small dogs, kids roughhousing, crates, belts, people running, anyone standing at our fenceline, people entering our house). Once I knew his triggers, I figured out how to manage them.
For small dogs, when we're out on walks I cross the street if I see another dog walker with a small dog, and tighten up the leash to keep my dog from lunging to cross the street. I also advise people with small dogs in the area NOT to approach my dog.
For loud kids, I just warn my kids when they start getting into it (wrestling) that they need to stop or the dog will break up the "fight" for them.
No crates, and my husband puts on his belts in the closet before coming out into the bedroom if the dog is there. The kids know not to run in the house. When I let my dog outside, if the neighbors are out, I'll go out with him so that he is less likely to continuing growling and barking along the fenceline. Guests to my home know not to ring the doorbell and announce their presence - I open the door before their arrival and they just come in quietly and are not expected to be greeted.
As I said, it took a LONG TIME for me to figure out his triggers as well as ways to mange them. But we've now had the dog for four years and he's a great, great dog. Quirky, yes, but a great dog.
I hope you are able to find a solution, whether it's fear aggression or not.
Honestly? I don't think this particular dog will ever be trustworthy around other people when you are not around. He's already seriously bitten a person he knows well (only the coat sleeve prevented a bad injury), and that despite knowledgeable handling on your friend's part. If you don't wish to euthanize him, you MUST keep him away from other people when you are not there! No house cleaners, no dog walkers, etc. It's just too big a risk. If your situation doesn't allow for that, then euthanasia may be the only realistic solution left.
Initially it sounded like fear aggression, which one of my dogs has. But when you said that he nipped/bit someone he knew, AND after getting treats - I don't know. I still think it might be fear aggression (my dog HATES crates - we do not crate him so he can avoid feeling as though he is trapped (as in a hoarding and shelter experience).
With my dog, I worked hard to determine what his triggers are (small dogs, kids roughhousing, crates, belts, people running, anyone standing at our fenceline, people entering our house). Once I knew his triggers, I figured out how to manage them.
For small dogs, when we're out on walks I cross the street if I see another dog walker with a small dog, and tighten up the leash to keep my dog from lunging to cross the street. I also advise people with small dogs in the area NOT to approach my dog.
For loud kids, I just warn my kids when they start getting into it (wrestling) that they need to stop or the dog will break up the "fight" for them.
No crates, and my husband puts on his belts in the closet before coming out into the bedroom if the dog is there. The kids know not to run in the house. When I let my dog outside, if the neighbors are out, I'll go out with him so that he is less likely to continuing growling and barking along the fenceline. Guests to my home know not to ring the doorbell and announce their presence - I open the door before their arrival and they just come in quietly and are not expected to be greeted.
As I said, it took a LONG TIME for me to figure out his triggers as well as ways to mange them. But we've now had the dog for four years and he's a great, great dog. Quirky, yes, but a great dog.
I hope you are able to find a solution, whether it's fear aggression or not.
Gosh have we been trying to figure out triggers. Its dominating our lives.
He was loose in the house. The behaviorist suggested a crate--we had a consult before the session. We never shut the door. He will go in and get aggressive about coming out but ONLY with a stranger. But then sometimes he is great with strangers. Its not gender. Its not height, weight or clothing though he doesn't like hats or dark big coats--we have noticed on walks. He reacted to a black umbrella but not a rainbow colored one.
He was not letting the walker put his leash on. We thought it was the reaching over motion, which he doesn't like so we got a harness with hooks on the front. No way-- even worse. He is only ever really comfortable around me or my mate giving him a walk but if we start the walk and hand the leash over, he doesn't seem to care.
He can't be alone in the house with a stranger. Period. That makes life very inconvenient for two people who are still having to go into work at least a few days a week.
Honestly? I don't think this particular dog will ever be trustworthy around other people when you are not around. He's already seriously bitten a person he knows well (only the coat sleeve prevented a bad injury), and that despite knowledgeable handling on your friend's part. If you don't wish to euthanize him, you MUST keep him away from other people when you are not there! No house cleaners, no dog walkers, etc. It's just too big a risk. If your situation doesn't allow for that, then euthanasia may be the only realistic solution left.
I feel this way deep down. The bites are getting worse. These are not nips.
I feel this way deep down. The bites are getting worse. These are not nips.
Sadly, animals (just like people) can sometimes be so damaged as a result of the way they were raised (or not raised) that they will never be able to trust or to learn to overcome their fears. Given the situation this dog was rescued from, I doubt he'd ever seen any other humans other than the hoarder during his formative puppyhood. And the resulting damage caused by that lack of socialization may be permanent. It's not his fault, but that doesn't make his bites any less dangerous.
It's very hard to live with a dog that's terrified of the entire world. It's even harder when the dog's response to that fear is an aggressive one. If you decide to euthanize this dog or to return him to the rescue (knowing that they will euthanize him), don't feel guilty. You tried very hard to give him the best life possible. That he's too damaged to adapt to the life of a family pet is the fault of others (his breeder, the hoarder), not you!
I am really desperate for some help. Maybe someone can tell me something that will work. And PLEASE-- no judgement from the "go to a breeder" contingent. This is about a rescue dog.
We adopted this dog about two months ago from a rescue. He was seized with other animals in a rural hoarding situation. He was tested with cats and kids and spent several months in a shelter. Exemplary behavior and became a shelter favorite who anyone could handle. He loves other dogs. He is a mutt, mostly a retriever but some other stuff in there-- GSD? Hound? Not a pit bull by the looks of it-- really looks like a smallish retriever. He is between 4 and 5 years old. House trained and came knowing "sit" and "shake" commands.
After settling in, he started with some strange behaviors. Aggressive barking and growling with anyone who came to the house-- postal carrier, friends. We kept him leashed when company came over and that helped. We called in a trainer as we were disturbed by what seemed to be escalation of his behavior with nipping. This was always directed at people who came into the house when we were not there like cleaners and dog walkers (we had a walker 2-3 days a week due to work schedule). We started keeping him crated and he nipped at the dogwalker as she was getting him out of the crate. We called a trainer who he bit. Twice. And drew blood. It got so bad that we just asked a friend to come over and let him out to pee-- this is a friend who is very experienced with dogs, calm, assertive, etc. He has met her several times and seems to really like her.
He has now attacked her twice without warning. Yesterday he bit through her heavy jacket and latched onto her arm leaving welts. She had to knock him pretty hard to get him to release. This was after he had sat quietly with her for over an hour, gotten pets and treats. The first time was more of a warning leap/lunge/nip and he had just gotten pets and treats and was behaving normally. I trust this person to notice the signs of a dog being uncomfortable and believe her when she said it came out of nowhere.
After the first nip with her (again he knows her. We practiced her letting him out before she came over solo. She has walked him before) we called a different very expensive and well regarded trainer who uses Syn Alia training method. The pup had a 3 hour session and we scheduled another. He did well. We practiced the techniques shown. For the first day after we saw some calmer behavior. And then it was back to his old practices, What is disturbing is that the biting is escalating. Now we have a bite and hold which certainly would have been very serious had our friend not been attired the way she was.
The dog behaves very well as long as we are home. He is smart. He is pleasant with our cats. He has been to the vet three times in 2 months to get a workup and see if there is any pain related cause to this. Nothing. He behaves on his leash. He is not dog aggressive and does well at the dog park.
My husband and I are both reasonably well informed about dogs. We had a dog (another mutt) who we loved very much that passed away a few years ago. We have not had one since. We have spent about $2K on this dog in vets, walkers, trainers, toys, calming treats and oils, etc since he has been with us. He is a nervous dog but very loving around us.
The rescue will euthanize him if we return him due to the bite risk. I am almost ready to do that. I can't stand to think about him hurting anyone seriously.
Any advice?
I bolded the words here for edification in determining some theme. Here's some ideas. We've had lots of dogs over the years, many ages, many situations. Tell me what I'm missing in what you said.
It might not be so bad depending...
So, you have the result of a rural hoarding situation. Where no one ever was allowed in the house most likely. No real road traffic or people walking by or neighbors gardening or knocking on the door or the mail carrier or meter readers or yard care, etc etc etc. The dog may not have had more than one human there...certainly doesn't seem like many humans. BUT at least it seems that a human, or human couple loved him. And he loved them. And he loved his animal buddies.
So that was his world. Maybe for his entire life. All he knew.
He loved his world. (Which is good. He made the best of things. And, in that odd situation, he seems to have been loved.) His owners likely thought anything outside their world was not good. They may have yelled at people who came to the door. May be just that no one came. It can be a funny thing but the most loving, caring dog can pick this up and love his world and his pack so much that his version of protection is to bark and then out of fear and not knowing what else to do, to bite.
Likely, he felt the hoarder was no real protection...he sensed the person's uncertainty. And it was his nature to take over where the human could not.
He behaves as long as you are there.
He bites others....but not dogs and cats. I bet the hoarder had cats too.
I debated is he an alpha or a loving dog doing his best in a scarey new world, no large pack around him, quiet, unusual sounds and sights like people and vehicles. Some people think of barking and anger and biting as alpha. Not necessarily. I think, with your dog, it's a gentler spirit trying to take care of his crazy world with no direction and, in his mind, it's common sense to bark and even bite. He loves you and wants to protect some nice things, a home and a human, that he finally has.
You say he doesn't like company. And he's had the postal carrier, friends, a dogwalker, an experienced friend, a different well regarded trainer in two months. That's a lot on a dog that doesn't like outsiders.
It might not be so bad. So he's smart, he likes other animals and loves you. He will walk on a leash.
How is he when you walk him like to the dog park and he sees other humans outside the home he needs to protect?
If he's okay outside his area of prime protection...the place humans call home...that would be great. If he's okay in the yard even better.
But, basically, if he's okay not biting outside his home, then the problem seems to be what you start with...that he barks and bites at friends who come inside the home BUT that you have one part solved... with friends inside the home by leashing him.
So, now we're down to just his barking at someone who comes to his door, like the mail carrier. And, I guess, if the mail carrier needs a signature or something, the dog may bite so for now you can just tell the mail carrier to wait while you leash your dog, whatever. Lots of people do something with their dog when they get an unexpected visitor at the door.
AND, of course, you do need training in regard to being the dog's calm sure alpha so he doesn't need to be.
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