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Just an update for those who were asking. Our vet prescribed trazodone after we got an MRI just to rule out anything with the brain. We are trying to take him in for a doggy day care date this week but have to be honest about the bite risk and are having difficult time finding a facility that will take him. We are pausing on the expensive trainer for the moment as we have had a few more conversations that didn't necessarily sit well and went against common sense.
As for the critiques of our ability to care for a dog without paying someone, we are both medical professionals and work shifts at a hospital a few days per week. At least one of us are home 4-5 days per week, but on other days we may be gone as long as 12 hours. Its not reasonable to expect that a dog "hold it" for this long. As I said in our OP, we are not dog novices and had a dog walker for the last dog we owned for over a decade. I am not accepting any criticism of our hiring someone to take care of our pets as that is merely being diligent about pet care. Nor will I accept that because we are not home 24/7 should we never have pets-- we are loving, competent and resourceful pet owners who have fostered both dogs and cats over the years. We will, in this situation, forgo the mid day walks as its unsafe for anyone entering our home but this is not a long term solution.
I don't believe a shock collar will help-- this dog is fearful unless he has someone to take cues from. I am really keen on the observation that he did not act out in the shelter as other dogs were around. We take him to physical therapy a few days a week and he will let anyone walk or handle him, pull things over his head, etc. He is kenneled with other dogs there. I believe he would be more comfortable with another calm, perhaps older, dog at home. This is something we need to consider.
The shelter has given us permission to return the dog, or euthanize him-- the representative from the shelter spoke to our vet and our vet has seen photos of the bruising left from the last bite. They will not release to another rescue group. We did sign a contract with the shelter.
We had close friends over this weekend and kept the pup on the leash when they came in. When we were all calmly seated, he went and sniffed everyone and got treats. He laid at the feet of one of the guests for a good hour, asked for pets, etc. He was off the leash in the dog park and behaved perfectly the next day. There were no signs of aggression or any issues whatsoever. I do think this is a situation triggered by the dog being home alone. I have not heard of another case like this, but I believe this is what it is.
Just an update for those who were asking. Our vet prescribed trazodone after we got an MRI just to rule out anything with the brain. We are trying to take him in for a doggy day care date this week but have to be honest about the bite risk and are having difficult time finding a facility that will take him. We are pausing on the expensive trainer for the moment as we have had a few more conversations that didn't necessarily sit well and went against common sense.
. . . . I am really keen on the observation that he did not act out in the shelter as other dogs were around. We take him to physical therapy a few days a week and he will let anyone walk or handle him, pull things over his head, etc. He is kenneled with other dogs there. I believe he would be more comfortable with another calm, perhaps older, dog at home. This is something we need to consider.
. . . I do think this is a situation triggered by the dog being home alone. I have not heard of another case like this, but I believe this is what it is.
Excellent! Thank you for getting back - you've got a few of us curious about how this progresses. I've heard of other dogs being stressed about being alone, and acting out in some fashion as a result. I don't recall having heard of one biting as a result, but I don't find it hard to imagine.
At least, tho, you've got some ideas that seem to be leading to predictability. If you can predict the reaction, you are half way home towards doing something about it. Regarding the doggie day care - you might start with one that has kennels, rather than crates. If it really is the difference of environments between noisy and quiet/alone, the kennel should also see the dog do well, and there needs be no danger to the attendants. A dog can poop and pee in a kennel and there is no harm/no foul. Easily cleaned after the dog goes home. See how he does for a month or two (if it works), and then slowly build towards something with more contact by others.
Just an update for those who were asking. Our vet prescribed trazodone after we got an MRI just to rule out anything with the brain. We are trying to take him in for a doggy day care date this week but have to be honest about the bite risk and are having difficult time finding a facility that will take him. We are pausing on the expensive trainer for the moment as we have had a few more conversations that didn't necessarily sit well and went against common sense.
As for the critiques of our ability to care for a dog without paying someone, we are both medical professionals and work shifts at a hospital a few days per week. At least one of us are home 4-5 days per week, but on other days we may be gone as long as 12 hours. Its not reasonable to expect that a dog "hold it" for this long. As I said in our OP, we are not dog novices and had a dog walker for the last dog we owned for over a decade. I am not accepting any criticism of our hiring someone to take care of our pets as that is merely being diligent about pet care. Nor will I accept that because we are not home 24/7 should we never have pets-- we are loving, competent and resourceful pet owners who have fostered both dogs and cats over the years. We will, in this situation, forgo the mid day walks as its unsafe for anyone entering our home but this is not a long term solution.
I don't believe a shock collar will help-- this dog is fearful unless he has someone to take cues from. I am really keen on the observation that he did not act out in the shelter as other dogs were around. We take him to physical therapy a few days a week and he will let anyone walk or handle him, pull things over his head, etc. He is kenneled with other dogs there. I believe he would be more comfortable with another calm, perhaps older, dog at home. This is something we need to consider.
The shelter has given us permission to return the dog, or euthanize him-- the representative from the shelter spoke to our vet and our vet has seen photos of the bruising left from the last bite. They will not release to another rescue group. We did sign a contract with the shelter.
We had close friends over this weekend and kept the pup on the leash when they came in. When we were all calmly seated, he went and sniffed everyone and got treats. He laid at the feet of one of the guests for a good hour, asked for pets, etc. He was off the leash in the dog park and behaved perfectly the next day. There were no signs of aggression or any issues whatsoever. I do think this is a situation triggered by the dog being home alone. I have not heard of another case like this, but I believe this is what it is.
Sure, a good dog loves nice company with his family. AND remember the situation didn't truly happen because the dog was home alone. It happened when the dog saw someone he didn't know or barely knew enter his home when he was alone and that person even tried to take him from his home. Humans were calling this "walking the dog" but how did he know. Seems like he didn't bite, only barked, till someone suddenly touched him and began pulling when he was at least safe in his crate. Again, we'd call it getting the dog out of the crate to walk...but, from his point of view he was in his nice safe home and he didn't want to mess that up by leaving. All the best.
Good for you OP. Keep us updated on how the doggy daycare goes. I applaud your efforts to try a lot of different things to keep this dog alive. At least you will know that you have done your best even if it ends up not working out.
Having dealt with fearful dogs in the past and being one to not give up I applauded you as there is a difference between a true aggressive dog and a fearful fear aggressive one. I learned to be careful of trainers as some of them do not understand fearful dogs and when you have one that trusts you and feels safe with you some of the things they can suggest could destroy the trust the dog has in you. When I saw a vet behaviorist he applauded me for not listening to what some of the trainers were telling me to do as he said it could have made my dog a lot more fearful and fearful of me at that. I think you have to listen to what feels right to your own gut.
I too work at a hospital and work 12 hrs use to be 3X a week But now I only work 2 as I went part time last year. I do have a dog door to a patio so my dogs can go out if they need too but my fear aggressive one had a need to be with me and if I walked out my door she would go over the fence to stay with me. She even did this when I took her to my parents to visit despite them being there and her loving them and their dogs if I walked out the front door she would race out their pet door and jump the 6ft fence . However she was not a separation anxiety type as she never barked or destroyed things when alone, she just tried to go with me! I was her person.
To solve the issue I used an Ex pen with a wire roof on it. I pushed the open end up against my outdoor wall so the dog door opened into it, weighted the outside walls of the ex-pen with heavy planters so she could not push it away and squeeze out. If one had a dog door to a yard you can now buy dog runs with tops that you could do this with. Anyway it was small but worked great as she and my other dog could go out and pee if the need be when I was gone but she could not escape to go find me. I joked that my condo had its own dog bathroom as often when getting ready to take the dogs out she would run out to her bathroom and pee before I took her out. I washed the area off at least once a day and picked up poop when I saw it so kept it clean.( one of my chores is being their maid!)
And for people saying you do not have time to take care of dogs do not listen to them as they do not know what they are taking about. Yeah 12 hrs is long to be gone but even when I worked full time I still had 4 days every week that I was able to spend with my dogs and even when I worked they got walked for over an hour before I went to work ( I work nights) so my dogs got a lot of my time more so then most dogs of people that work 8 hrs 5X a week get. My dogs have always been happy dogs and not dogs that bark and annoy neighbors or destroy my things and I am talking of all the dogs I have had over the years not just one dog.
I have put up with people telling me you can not work and have dogs, you can not be gone for 12 hrs and have dogs( hello I am home more days then I am gone) and my favorite was you do not have a yard you can not own dogs as I own a condo that only has a fenced patio . Well maybe the people that say such things can not do it but I can and have done so for 30 years. I have even had high energy herding breeds as I am willing to give them the time they need . Rather then going out shopping or to movies, bars etc with friends I joined an agility club so did a lot with the dogs and that group, Hike in the hills or spend time at the beach with friends that are dog owners and our dogs. My dogs are with me more time then not and people have always said I wish I was one of your dogs so hummm seems that despite all the folks that like to tell me I can not have dogs I have done so quite well .
I also am not unwilling to board the dogs and take trips as time away from the responsibility of owning dogs is enjoyable too and traveling is enjoyable to me be it a few days or a few weeks. I just balance it and am not gone that often as the dogs are important too and time with them is short in terms of the years they live.
I myself have enjoyed the dogs that have challenged me as they are the ones that taught me a lot about dogs and training dogs and my most difficult one became my once in a life time dog and I doubt if I will ever have that same bond we had with another dog. I am over 60 now so my current dogs are rather easy ones and suite this period of my life but part of me does miss the challenges of a more difficult dog.
I am keeping my fingers crossed as it does sound like your dogs fear could be based on being alone being it came from a situation where that did not happen so yeah is more comfortable in a kennel type situation where there are dogs and people when you are not with it. Please keep us posted on how the dog is doing.
I don’t understand why anyone would waste time and resources on an aggressive dog. I do not believe aggressive dogs can ever be fully “rehabbed”, only trained and then managed. The problem with management is eventually it breaks down. Are you really willing to accept the risk of your dog seriously injuring someone, getting sued because of a dog bite, losing your homeowner’s insurance (you are supposed to disclose if your dog has already bitten), possibly losing your home, or having an infant or toddler harmed? You can make all the excuses in the world for WHY this dog is willing to sink its teeth into human flesh but I doubt that will make anyone feel better when they’re at the ER getting stitches or surgery, or you’re emptying your savings to retain a lawyer. I know as a mother, my child would never be allowed at your house (my own mother kept a sketchy dog that she swore would never “really” hurt anyone but I would not take my children there until the dog finally died). I just don’t see the point or why anyone would assume this risk.
What kind of dog could you have if you bought a nice, even-tempered safe dog and invested all the money you’ve spent on this one in training classes? $2000 could buy you a nice dog from a reputable breeder with a solid, predictable temperament that would be a wonderful, safe companion for your upcoming grandchild!
I don’t understand why anyone would waste time and resources on an aggressive dog. I do not believe aggressive dogs can ever be fully “rehabbed”, only trained and then managed. The problem with management is eventually it breaks down. Are you really willing to accept the risk of your dog seriously injuring someone, getting sued because of a dog bite, losing your homeowner’s insurance (you are supposed to disclose if your dog has already bitten), possibly losing your home, or having an infant or toddler harmed? You can make all the excuses in the world for WHY this dog is willing to sink its teeth into human flesh but I doubt that will make anyone feel better when they’re at the ER getting stitches or surgery, or you’re emptying your savings to retain a lawyer. I know as a mother, my child would never be allowed at your house (my own mother kept a sketchy dog that she swore would never “really” hurt anyone but I would not take my children there until the dog finally died). I just don’t see the point or why anyone would assume this risk.
What kind of dog could you have if you bought a nice, even-tempered safe dog and invested all the money you’ve spent on this one in training classes? $2000 could buy you a nice dog from a reputable breeder with a solid, predictable temperament that would be a wonderful, safe companion for your upcoming grandchild!
Dude, you come into every thread just to talk about how wonderful pure breeds are. I've had them and I've had mutts. They are all great...however, OP is doing their best to do right by this dog. Why must you S**t on that?
Dude, you come into every thread just to talk about how wonderful pure breeds are. I've had them and I've had mutts. They are all great...however, OP is doing their best to do right by this dog. Why must you S**t on that?
I don't care what breed this dog is, it has proven itself dangerous. Doing right for the dog should not trump human safety. OP said: "I am really desperate for some help." and "Any advice?" I don't care what she does with the dog. I don't care if they find themselves in a situation where someone is seriously hurt and they are facing legal consequences all because they were hell-bent on saving a dog. They can do whatever they want although I think to endanger others, including their grandchild, is highly irresponsible. They are just throwing good money after bad. They have already gone above and beyond, spent thousands of dollars to correct the problem and the dog is still biting! The first link I shared is not a unique situation and people have even been killed by "so-called" "rehabbed" aggressive dogs. They asked for opinions and advice, I gave mine. I wish them luck. Our opinions differ on what is "right by the dog."
I don't care what breed this dog is, it has proven itself dangerous. Doing right for the dog should not trump human safety. OP said: "I am really desperate for some help." and "Any advice?" I don't care what she does with the dog. I don't care if they find themselves in a situation where someone is seriously hurt and they are facing legal consequences all because they were hell-bent on saving a dog. They can do whatever they want although I think to endanger others, including their grandchild, is highly irresponsible. They are just throwing good money after bad. They have already gone above and beyond, spent thousands of dollars to correct the problem and the dog is still biting! The first link I shared is not a unique situation and people have even been killed by "so-called" "rehabbed" aggressive dogs. They asked for opinions and advice, I gave mine. I wish them luck. Our opinions differ on what is "right by the dog."
I think the problem here, Otto, is that you seem to interpret the dog's actions as much worse than either the OP, or most of the responders here do. Maybe you are right, and if your understanding IS right, I can see why you say what you do. But I think your understanding is not correct. Let's give the OP some credit for understanding their own situation. I think they understand very well that they don't want a dangerous dog.
Anyway, it is useful to have the opinions offered for what to do if the dog IS dangerous.
FWIW, we have a 12-year-old Lab mix, who loves and is friendly with everyone, but about five years ago, she started to nip at swinging bare feet (like when one leg is crossed over the other), but not enough to draw blood. After this happened for the second time, we just warned visitors upfront about that idiosyncrasy, and our dog has not nipped or bit anyone since (more than four years now). However, if we had a very young child around on a frequent basis and we were talking about an actual bite, I think we would have to reconsider keeping our dog -- or else board or cage her when the child was there.
I think as long as people are aware of a situation and take means to prevent any injury to anyone, people should not be quick to get rid of a dog. (I also commend the OP for being such a conscientious caretaker!)
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I do have a dog door to a patio so my dogs can go out if they need too but my fear aggressive one had a need to be with me and if I walked out my door she would go over the fence to stay with me. She even did this when I took her to my parents to visit despite them being there and her loving them and their dogs if I walked out the front door she would race out their pet door and jump the 6ft fence . However she was not a separation anxiety type as she never barked or destroyed things when alone, she just tried to go with me! I was her person.
