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So, now we're down to just his barking at someone who comes to his door, like the mail carrier.
No, now we're down to him BITING (a full-mouthed uninhibited bite, NOT a nip!), seemingly without provocation, a person he already knew who came into the house at mid-day to walk him. That's not the same situation as barking at the mailman, not at all! This behavior is dangerous!
If the OP can rearrange things so the dog doesn't have to be walked mid-day (a securely fenced kennel run the dog can be kept in during the day while the OP and spouse are at work, or perhaps a dog door leading into a securely fenced part of the yard), and can arrange for any repairmen, house cleaners, etc. to only come by while the OP is there, it might be possible to safely keep this dog while working with a good trainer to better socialize him, reduce his fear of strangers, and hopefully reduce his chances of biting another person. Kenneling him when the OP needs to go out of town may be a problem, though, but an experienced kennelman who's worked with aggressive dogs before may be willing to handle him. (A pet sitter coming to the house is out of the question, at least for now!) It all comes down to how much the OP can change things at home to remove the need for a mid-day potty walk. If the OP can't come up with a workable alternative to the mid-day walk, that may be an insurmountable issue that precludes keeping this dog.
I wish this was a situation where we could just limit the dog's interaction with strangers. Apparently he came from a house with lots of other kids and animals and so far seems easy going with both. But its the unpredictability. There is no formula to manage his stress that works reliably at the moment.
We have thought about a dog door-- we do have a fenced yard-- but we also have indoor cats and don't want to sacrifice their health or have them go missing by going outside. We live in a downtown of a small town that was built in the early 1900s with houses close together and traffic (though not a big city by any means). The cats wouldn't last very long if they were in and outdoor.
I finally spoke with the behaviorist/trainer who said to just leave the dog alone during the days we are not home, section off a room, clean up the mess. We aren't huge fans of this idea and have never had a puppy because we didn't want to deal with lots of pee and poo indoors during house training. But maybe that is what needs to happen.
The behaviorist also said that it will be a long time before we know if he has gotten better at managing his anxiety and with a dog who has no bite inhibition, we may never know for sure that he won't do it again-- that a year could pass and we would think we were out of the woods but something could set him off. He said we need to look at our risks and our dealbreakers. And on a pragmatic level we have to figure out if we can spend another few grand on training only to discover he can never be left alone with anyone but us.
There are lots of loving dogs who need homes. There is no reason to fill a space in an excellent home with a dog who has a screw loose.
You are about to have a baby grandchild. You should not have a dog in your home that is not 100% safe around people, safe around new situations and strange noises. There are lots of homeless dogs out there who can behave that way for you.
Dogs like your biter need either a specialty owner who is prepared to try to control that behavior, or else the dog should be put humanely to sleep.
I know it makes you feel guilty but how will you feel if this dog draws blood on your grandchild's face?
There are lots of loving dogs who need homes. There is no reason to fill a space in an excellent home with a dog who has a screw loose.
You are about to have a baby grandchild. You should not have a dog in your home that is not 100% safe around people, safe around new situations and strange noises. There are lots of homeless dogs out there who can behave that way for you.
Dogs like your biter need either a specialty owner who is prepared to try to control that behavior, or else the dog should be put humanely to sleep.
I know it makes you feel guilty but how will you feel if this dog draws blood on your grandchild's face?
I agree with this and I think this dog is just too damaged to ever be a family pet . Yes there are too many sweet and nice dogs out there for you to allow this dangerous dog in your house . It is not the dogs fault he is a product of the way he was raised .
It must be heartbreaking for you that you may need to put this dog down. To anyone else outside of your situation, it is easy for us to say, "put him down." But he is a good dog to you and your spouse. He is a good dog until when he is not, and it is hard to make such a permanent, final decision on an animal who was raised by such an environment that was not his fault. So I am sorry that you and your spouse are going through this financial and emotional rollercoaster.
Is it possible to rehome him to someone who is experienced with aggressive dogs like him? Have you tried contacting such trainers who specializes in aggression to see if they can take him? Or a sanctuary who knows how to deal with dogs like him?
The rescue will euthanize him if we return him due to the bite risk. I am almost ready to do that. I can't stand to think about him hurting anyone seriously.
Any advice?
Sadly, there is no hope for this dog. Dog has been badly traumatized but previous experience. Only one choice left now........
Sadly, there is no hope for this dog. Dog has been badly traumatized but previous experience. Only one choice left now........
This is NOT what I want to hear, but its probably true. Just so so sad. This poor guy. Not a mean dog at all-- loving and sweet with us. His brain just seems to be broken.
Reminded me of an older rescue dog I had years ago. He was in and out of the same regional no-kill shelter for years...at one point his owners were living in their car. Didn't sound as if he was ever mistreated per se, just faced a lot of upheavals and surrenders by people he trusted. He was a kennel fav too, friendly, with some manners. He was passed over a lot because he wasn't physically "perfect"....an old hind leg fracture resulting in a limp and arthritis. The shelter staff knew him well and all seemed to like him.
I took my other younger dog to meet up. Introduction went fine; a momentary snap/pack order adjustment, but after that OK as my other dog was submissive and peaceful. He was approachable, friendly, no obvious behaviors such as resource guarding. After he'd been in my home for about 2 months he began getting more and more reactive to other dogs while in the car or on walks. OK, fine, the honeymoon/shutdown period was ending after all and leash walking helped. Then he began protecting the house from people more and more often. Lots of noise when anyone other than me showed up. This proceeded to nips, then to bites, then unprovoked bites. No serious injuries, but it was escalating. Still no resource guarding over food/places in the house. Of course he was also picking up on MY anxiety which didn't help. Then it became unprovoked biting away from the house. He seemed to grow more and more "concerned" about defending what now, after too long, belonged to him. He was restless, anxious, touchier about more as time went on. After an unprovoked attack on a person who walked up to us while away from the house, I took him to my vet to check for anything physical that might be contributing. He was in pain and an xray showed more changes/erosion to the bone in the fused leg. The cancer word came up but we didn't do a biopsy. We put him down. Very very hard to do, but I couldn't put him back in a shelter once again, knew he'd sit abandoned again with that bite history, and knew he would be in more and more misery. At least I tried to remind myself that he did have a few months of relative happiness at the end of a less than great life.
Last edited by Parnassia; 04-26-2018 at 04:54 PM..
We adopted this dog about two months ago from a rescue. . . . a rural hoarding situation. He was tested with cats and kids and spent several months in a shelter. . . . became a shelter favorite who anyone could handle. He loves other dogs. . . . He is between 4 and 5 years old. . . .
. . . he started with some strange behaviors. Aggressive barking and growling . . . and he nipped at the dogwalker as she was getting him out of the crate. We called a trainer who he bit. Twice. And drew blood.
. . . we just asked a friend to come over and let him out to pee-- this is a friend who is very experienced with dogs, calm, assertive, etc. He has met her several times and seems to really like her. He has now attacked her twice without warning. Yesterday he bit through her heavy jacket and latched onto her arm leaving welts. . . . I trust this person to notice the signs of a dog being uncomfortable and believe her when she said it came out of nowhere.
After the first nip with her (again he knows her. We practiced her letting him out before she came over solo. She has walked him before) we called a different very expensive and well regarded trainer who uses Syn Alia training method. The pup had a 3 hour session and we scheduled another. He did well. We practiced the techniques shown. For the first day after we saw some calmer behavior. And then it was back to his old practices, What is disturbing is that the biting is escalating. Now we have a bite and hold which certainly would have been very serious had our friend not been attired the way she was.
The dog behaves very well as long as we are home. He is smart. He is pleasant with our cats. He has been to the vet three times in 2 months to get a workup and see if there is any pain related cause to this. Nothing. He behaves on his leash. He is not dog aggressive and does well at the dog park.
. . .
The rescue will euthanize him if we return him due to the bite risk. I am almost ready to do that. I can't stand to think about him hurting anyone seriously.
. . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by desperatedogadvice
. . .We are working with a behaviorist/trainer who we had a session with and there is another scheduled for early next week. This person is a speaker at many conferences, has written books and is highly sought after for dogs with aggression. Sessions are several hundred dollars a pop. But since the first session the bite and hold happened. He had NEVER done that before so its disturbing.
. . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by desperatedogadvice
Gosh have we been trying to figure out triggers. Its dominating our lives.
. . .
He can't be alone in the house with a stranger. Period. . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by desperatedogadvice
. . . The bites are getting worse. These are not nips.
Quote:
Originally Posted by desperatedogadvice
I wish this was a situation where we could just limit the dog's interaction with strangers. Apparently he came from a house with lots of other kids and animals and so far seems easy going with both. But its the unpredictability. There is no formula to manage his stress that works reliably at the moment.
. . .
I finally spoke with the behaviorist/trainer who said to just leave the dog alone during the days we are not home, section off a room, clean up the mess. . . .
The behaviorist also said that it will be a long time before we know if he has gotten better at managing his anxiety and with a dog who has no bite inhibition, we may never know for sure that he won't do it again-- that a year could pass and we would think we were out of the woods but something could set him off. He said we need to look at our risks and our dealbreakers. And on a pragmatic level we have to figure out if we can spend another few grand on training only to discover he can never be left alone with anyone but us.
Our vet has offered Prozac or euthanasia.
. . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by oregonwoodsmoke
There are lots of loving dogs who need homes. There is no reason to fill a space in an excellent home with a dog who has a screw loose.
You are about to have a baby grandchild. You should not have a dog in your home that is not 100% safe around people, safe around new situations and strange noises. There are lots of homeless dogs out there who can behave that way for you.
Dogs like your biter need either a specialty owner who is prepared to try to control that behavior, or else the dog should be put humanely to sleep.
I know it makes you feel guilty but how will you feel if this dog draws blood on your grandchild's face?
Harsh truth, but Oregon may be right on this. I have some questions, and some thoughts.
First, apparently this dog spent months with relative strangers, and demonstrated none of this behavior? Is that correct? That could be a clue.
Second, the Syn Alia trainer had no ideas about what was causing this? And had nothing better to recommend than leaving the dog in a room? That isn't a bad recommendation, but I'm rather surprised, since this is supposed to be no ordinary trainer. I would have expected more insight as to what the cause is. I would push this point for clarification on your next session. And I do mean push. Without figuring out what is making this happen, it remains unpredictable, as it is now, and that is not good enough. I know you'll feel bad about making that decision if you do, but it will be for the best.
Next, some ideas. This behavior (unpredictable and aggressive) could be caused by a brain tumor or a subdural hematoma (bleeding in the brain that creates pressure). Probably the only way to find that would be an MRI, and those are expensive - very expensive. Discuss this with your vet.
This behavior also sounds like it might be extreme guarding behavior. This can be a strong instinct pattern, and a good deal of what you describe sounds like it MIGHT be a demonstration that this dog guards. Guarding behavior may also come with one-person or one-family dogs. Dogs who instinctively want to be close to their humans or pack or flock. This would fit the behavior you are describing.
[Edit to finish post]
My dogs, as an example, are farm collies. They have a sense of order. They want things to be in their place, and as expected. When strangeness comes in to the scene, they want to correct it. Oregonwoodsmoke's thread "Pensive is worried" demonstrates this sort of behavior. Your dog could be reacting to the walker and the friend out of a similar instinct, i.e. "My humans are not here. I should not be going for a walk."
I find it odd that a dog would demonstrate this level of either guardiness, or one-person devotion, or orderliness in a home where the dog has only lived two months. That is just a bare minimum "get comfortable" stage. And that the dog didn't demonstrate this in a foster situation where the dog lived for much longer. So I bring up these instinct patterns as a possibility to be thought about and recognized. From only reading your posts, I can't say they are involved, but they might be. If it IS an instinct behavior pattern, it CAN be dealt with over time, but you might not want to.
I am sure of one thing, tho. As the behaviorist said, this behavior can't be permanently gotten rid of. It will always be there. Maybe it will be in the background, and you can avoid the triggers, if you can find them. But it will always be there to some extent.
It is also important to know the difference between nipping and biting. Nipping and mouthing (using the teeth to grip, sometimes even painfully) are herding instinct behaviors. They might accidentally even turn into a bite, but the dog generally only wants to control the target animal - be it a bull or a human. It is not supposed to involve breaking the skin. A bite will break the skin, and the intent of the dog is to break the skin.
My farm collies may act in an extremely aggressive manner with strangers, showing teeth and snarling in a most impressive and scary way. And they will mouth - but they do not bite. The danger for me is if a strange dog should escalate to biting as a reaction, in which case everything would be out of control and out of hand. So I don't allow my dogs free rein around strange dogs, because I know they will be rude, and it could escalate.
From your description, your dog is biting, and this is an important distinction. Talk with the vet again about possible physical causes. If the vet doesn't want to go out on a limb and say "if it is physical, these are possibilities", give him/her a push, and get them to speculate. (I know some vets hate to speculate.)
Get your friend to think about what happened again. See if she can think of anything that preceded the bite. Anything at all. Get the behaviorist to speculate. Ask that first trainer how many dogs he/she has known who bite, and how they handled it. The dogwalker too, same sort of questions.
As I'm thinking about it, the more I'm thinking that short of a new owner who will keep the dog active and isolated, that the best thing is to return the dog to the rescue.
In the beginning, kind of closed with the most successful being leashing him when people come inside. Yes, he bit the trainer and the friend that let him out .. bit her twice. So the idea going forward was no one inside till he's leashed.
That may not be your style though.
He obviously wants to be good to you. But whether you're home or not, he is not good to others. (except leashed at home). So you're someone special to him. Perhaps the person who saved him. He seems to have fixated on you. He may even bite the new people in your home when you are away because he doesn't know what happened to you and why you're not there.
GIRL addressed triggers and dealing with them.
I have to say, a lot of shelter animals do have issues. Some shelters moreso...some a lot less so depending on their system.
When I was taking classes in training dogs, the focus was always on the fact that in actuality it is the owner that needs to be trained...in how to train a dog. The dog will feel safer when a human in the house is the true alpha (angry and biting is not necessarily being alpha) and not the dog having to take that role.
Also, I think a new pet needs some peace to adjust and not a lot of visitors. I wonder if you can find a trainer to train you along with the dog in what to do. And a few weeks without visitors.
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