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i am not sure that i would take the definition of stupidity from people who don't know how to spell "realize". (or cognitive dissonance vs dissidence)
Oh noes! A word was misspelled in the source! The horror! You do realize (US version) the source is British and realise (intentional) is British English? Could be worse about the dissonance I guess, damn autocorrect. Coming from some one who doesn't capitalize their I's, or the first letter of any sentence, and has two nearly paragraph long run on sentences. It doesn't disprove any of the points, all it does is deflect from the point into pedantry.
Personally, unless it's grossly off I don't care if anyone does it. If you want to correct me, and say people shouldn't listen to me because of that fact, you better be damn flawless. You certainly should not have many more flaws then the person you are nitpicking.
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Originally Posted by floridasandy
the reason i like this forum is that everyone expresses opinions and anyone else is able to come to their own conclusions, by analyzing all the facts and opinions presented, without someone coming on board and telling them that they are "stupid". we don't have to agree, but we don't have to insult each other either.
Guess what, not all opinions are even remotely intelligent or sane. That's part of life. I'm not going to refrain from calling a person a raving loony or an idiot when it is well deserved.
This person makes nearly daily predictions about the end of the world and has yet to present a single fact. It just is because, well they say so. Then refuses to address the abject failure of all of them. This points to a mental problem, which is not all that uncommon among economic doomers.
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Originally Posted by floridasandy
the truth is that we have never been at this point before in history, so all bets are still on the table. i wouldn't think (and this is just an opinion) that the US citizens would give up the dollar willingly to go to any other global currency. i would think that dollars would have value at least to US citizens.
Well, this time is unique. Tomorrow, 6 months, and next year we will be in a totally unique position as well. Just because there is uncertainty doesn't mean we need to believe everything people say without any proof.
You are welcome to your views, even if they have no rational basis and no proof. With the same idea (solely this time is unique, the only presented) I could say it is just as likely giant pink unicorns could come hurtling out of my butt to fight space invaders.
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Originally Posted by floridasandy
i will add, though, that raising the debt ceiling and printing more dollars will likely result in increasing inflation, making those dollars worth less for anybody trying to use them. that is the ugly part of raising the debt ceiling-you devalue your currency each time you do it and you hurt the citizens, by FORCING them to pay more for food, fuel, clothing, electricity, etc.
It will, but so what? Inflation has been happening for a long time (longer then my parents have been alive) and we are still here to complain about it. The debt ceiling has been raised a number of times in the last 30 years, and we are still here.
If you want some one to believe you, prove it. The burden of proof is on the claimer.
Oh noes! A word was misspelled in the source! The horror! You do realize (US version) the source is British and realise (intentional) is British English? Could be worse about the dissonance I guess, damn autocorrect. Coming from some one who doesn't capitalize their I's, or the first letter of any sentence, and has two nearly paragraph long run on sentences. It doesn't disprove any of the points, all it does is deflect from the point into pedantry.
Personally, unless it's grossly off I don't care if anyone does it. If you want to correct me, and say people shouldn't listen to me because of that fact, you better be damn flawless. You certainly should not have many more flaws then the person you are nitpicking.
Guess what, not all opinions are even remotely intelligent or sane. That's part of life. I'm not going to refrain from calling a person a raving loony or an idiot when it is well deserved.
This person makes nearly daily predictions about the end of the world and has yet to present a single fact. It just is because, well they say so. Then refuses to address the abject failure of all of them. This points to a mental problem, which is not all that uncommon among economic doomers.
Well, this time is unique. Tomorrow, 6 months, and next year we will be in a totally unique position as well. Just because there is uncertainty doesn't mean we need to believe everything people say without any proof.
You are welcome to your views, even if they have no rational basis and no proof. With the same idea (solely this time is unique, the only presented) I could say it is just as likely giant pink unicorns could come hurtling out of my butt to fight space invaders.
It will, but so what? Inflation has been happening for a long time (longer then my parents have been alive) and we are still here to complain about it. The debt ceiling has been raised a number of times in the last 30 years, and we are still here.
If you want some one to believe you, prove it. The burden of proof is on the claimer.
there is no "burden of proof" for an opinion.
that's the point. we have never been at this point in history before, never had massive taxpayer funded wall street bailouts, massive debt monetization, or the federal reserve holding the largest share of america's debt, so everything going forward is just an opinion/speculation until it happens.
Last edited by floridasandy; 07-17-2011 at 07:58 PM..
ignoring your rant, there is no "burden of proof" for an opinion.
Riiiight, an intelligent argument is a rant to one who can't logically address it.
Everyone has the right to their opinion, I am the first to admit it. I also have the right to think some one's opinion is not only idiotic, but raving madness. That is my opinion. I have a wellspring of proof for my own opinion though. Not to really convince anyone, but as basis for my own thoughts. Just like anyone people with more brain cells then teeth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy
that's the point. we have never been at this point in history before, never had massive wall street bailouts or the federal reserve holding the largest share of america's debt, so everything going forward is just an opinion/speculation until it happens.
Sorry, edit conflict. That this time is unique is not proof, it's an excuse. It doesn't disprove my unicorns fighting space invaders.
Riiiight, an intelligent argument is a rant to one who can't logically address it.
Everyone has the right to their opinion, I am the first to admit it. I also have the right to think some one's opinion is not only idiotic, but raving madness. That is my opinion. I have a wellspring of proof for my own opinion though. Not to really convince anyone, but as basis for my own thoughts. Just like anyone people with more brain cells then teeth.
that "wellspring of proof" is that your parents had inflation so it isn't a problem? that also is an "opinion".
The reason we cannot continue on the present course is that the important factor is the spread between government debt creation and government revenue increase. But remember, government revenue can only go up as GDP does in a sustainable fashion. That's because government by definition gets its money by imposing tax upon production. If taxes rise faster than GDP does the attempt to raise taxes fails over the intermediate term for the same reason that debt cannot rise faster than GDP (you can think of taxes as simply an interest payment on GDP if you wish; mathematically they're identical.)
Last edited by floridasandy; 07-17-2011 at 07:56 PM..
that wellspring of proof is that your parents had inflation so it isn't a problem? (that's just an opinion also).
You are the one who said I was being unfair to some one expressing their opinion...by expressing my opinion.
It was to point out that just because inflation is going on now, doesn't mean everything is going to explode. You provided no other proof then it happening now, and history has already disproved that train of thought.
The reason we cannot continue on the present course is that the important factor is the spread between government debt creation and government revenue increase. But remember, government revenue can only go up as GDP does in a sustainable fashion. That's because government by definition gets its money by imposing tax upon production. If taxes rise faster than GDP does the attempt to raise taxes fails over the intermediate term for the same reason that debt cannot rise faster than GDP (you can think of taxes as simply an interest payment on GDP if you wish; mathematically they're identical.)
What the hell is that?
It states because of the "Law of Exponents" we are screwed, and doesn't proved a single mathematical proof. It just states we are because, well he says so. He has the historical graphs to say something is wrong, then predicts it out into the future without anything at all save telling people it's mathematically true.
I have taken a ton (understatement) of math, I want to see the formulas and the variables...not a couple of sentences of him telling me what he says they present. Show me the formulas.
Sorry, edit conflict. That this time is unique is not proof, it's an excuse. It doesn't disprove my unicorns fighting space invaders.
In that it is unique for US (unless comparing to other places and times, like the Soviet Union, and/or Argentina), is not a point towards any "proof," and from what I follow not intended as such.
It is a case of situation awareness. We are in uncharted territory.
As any exponential growth system must collapse, so goes a Debt Based US Currency system. I would like to say it is "common sense" or simple math, but I suppose it is not. It is a Calculus III Theorem. If the exponent number is over 1, the system will always explode.
Put in simpler terms, if the money was issued as money and not as debt and had zero interest, the system would be balanced and stable.
As the exponential growth line is sold to investors as a path to infinite wealth, the exponential debt from the interest is sinking US.
Stop paying the interest and the problem(s) with the money stops.
[edit: looks like Sandy beat me to this. Need me to break out the Calc III books?]
In that it is unique for US (unless comparing to other places and times, like the Soviet Union, and/or Argentina), is not a point towards any "proof," and from what I follow not intended as such.
It is a case of situation awareness. We are in uncharted territory.
As any exponential growth system must collapse, so goes a Debt Based US Currency system. I would like to say it is "common sense" or simple math, but I suppose it is not. It is a Calculus III Theorem. If the exponent number is over 1, the system will always explode.
Put in simpler terms, if the money was issued as money and not as debt and had zero interest, the system would be balanced and stable.
As the exponential growth line is sold to investors as a path to infinite wealth, the exponential debt from the interest is sinking US.
Stop paying the interest and the problem(s) with the money stops.
[edit: looks like Sandy beat me to this. Need me to break out the Calc III books?]
So what? We are in a unique position so we should believe anything people tell us?
Still, show me the formulas or the proof. There are none in the article, calc 3 or otherwise (not even the word integral or derivative is used). I have taken calc 3 (engineering version) and I don't see how multi-dimensional (3-D and hyper-dimensional) figures and conic sections deal with the 2-D GDP/debt graphs presented. If some one wants to use the "Law of Exponents"...is it a power of 2, 3, 4, 5...which one is it?
So what? We are in a unique position so we should believe anything people tell us?
Still, show me the formulas or the proof. There are none in the article, calc 3 or otherwise (not even the word integral or derivative is used). I have taken calc 3 (engineering version) and I don't see how multi-dimensional (3-D and hyper-dimensional) figures and conic sections deal with the 2-D GDP/debt graphs presented. If some one wants to use the "Law of Exponents"...is it a power of 2, 3, 4, 5...which one is it?
I recall it as being called the "p theorem" or some such -- it has been 20 + years for me, as well. ) It was used to lead into series calculations of Sine, Cosine and the rest.
But of course Wiki (below) would have a decent explanation of the concept.
In general if the multiplied value is over 1 on a series, it will explode. Allow interest to be above X1 (which would 0%, net) and the system will collapse in compounding and growing debt, as the cycle is repeated and brought forward year after year.
If you do not believe us, just look at the growing portion of the overall budget that interest is taking, year after year.
But for numbers, say we were to model 5% interest -- the number, as you wish, would be 1.05, compounded into infinity would lead to an infinite level of debt.
Greater than 1, there will be exponential growth towards positive infinity.
1, the progression is a constant sequence.
Between −1 and 1 but not zero, there will be exponential decay towards zero.
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