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Do you remember about "Octomom"? We do have a real welfare woman with 14! kids to get an idea about welfare largess (that supposedly allowed very luxurious lifestyle, including an unemployed house husband and a home, in 1968 for an imaginary woman with 8 kids). Keep in mind it's a liberal California welfare not Texas' variety. Octomom got in trouble with the law, she' made something like $200,000 on porn movies and still claimed welfare (she could claim welfare only if she makes less than $119,000). Here what she's got for 14 kids from taxpayers.
From January-May 2013, she got $6,666 she had no right to collect, on top of $9,016 in Food Stamps she shouldn't have gotten, for $15,683 total. - See more at: Octomom Welfare Fraud Revealed: How Bad Did She Bilk Taxpayers? - The Hollywood Gossip
$6666 of cash assistance
$9016 in food stamps
$15,683 total for Jan, Feb, March, April and May. It translates to $37639 per year for 14 kids ($2688 per kid) in LA area, can you afford a house husband and home loan with that?
Keep in mind that in May 2012, she filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy in federal court, revealing that she had less than $50,000 in assets and owed between $500,000 and $1 million in liabilities. "
In the USA we choose to not sit by and watch people (children) starve. Obviously we do not have full employment, so not everyone is going to be able to earn a living.
There is a lot of ground between compassion and enablement.
Everyone has issues how their tax dollars are spent. Some are unhappy with defense expenditures, some are unhappy about infrastructure spending, some are unhappy about safety net spending. Probably means democracy is working. In the best compromise, no one is gloating.
Most people would be better served if they improved their own personal lot in life, as opposed to whining how their tax dollars are not being spent according to their desires and view of things. I doubt a lot of successful, wealthy people are bemoaning food stamps. And no matter what system you create, there will be inefficiencies and fraud.
Last edited by shaker281; 08-07-2013 at 10:30 PM..
have they ever considered getting a JOB and becming productive members of society?
Why?? Low wage jobs for unskilled people seldom come with health benefits. Why get up and go to work when you will do it and pay taxes to support them?
Where did anyone say that welfare fraud was acceptable? Post up the message number. Else wise, straw man argument.
No-one wrote that. And I did not write that anyone said that it was. What was written is that "we had bigger issues to concern ourselves with" i.e. bigger frauds and problems. Which is basically saying that we need to deal with those first and then with (relatively small) individual welfare fraud. That in turn provoked my response.
And you think it's not a proven fact? Been around this Planet for how long? Isn't it what labor supply and demand all about? Think about it, the lower your social perch the more your wages are influenced by your survival instinct. Since survival resources of the labor are very limited, employers can coerce workers (even fine folks like yourself) into a wage (and employment conditions) of their choice. It took 100+ years of struggle against the free market (and people who control it) to mitigate these unfortunate (from labor standpoint) circumstances. Unfortunately, new breed of the wage slaves is so dumb and gutless, we are about to squander 100+ years of struggle and sacrifice of the previous generations. Keep listening that talk radio.
What is talk radio? I don't we have that in Holland.
And no exploitation is not a proven fact. It is a skew that commies put on a perfectly normal transaction of labor and money. But I like your thinking, because hey, people in Russia and other communists states were so much better off than those in the west, right? Even now, it is better to be an average Russian than an average American. Better not to mention to wonderful worker paradises of Cuba and North Korea.
For your information, I am not entirely certain (to put it very, very mildly) that I am happy with the direction to world seems to be heading. I just have a problem with you calling all labor exploitation.
No-one wrote that. And I did not write that anyone said that it was. What was written is that "we had bigger issues to concern ourselves with" i.e. bigger frauds and problems. Which is basically saying that we need to deal with those first and then with (relatively small) individual welfare fraud. That in turn provoked my response.
Actually the post you responded to was this, "The problem is when people fixate on one issue while ignoring other, possibly much bigger issues". Which means deal with all of them, not just the ones that are politically dramatic.
Why do you even care about the social safety net in the USA (the underlying premise of this thread)? It is my understanding the Dutch system is far more liberal in terms of eligibility and benefits.
Last edited by shaker281; 08-08-2013 at 04:46 AM..
What is talk radio? I don't we have that in Holland.
And no exploitation is not a proven fact. It is a skew that commies put on a perfectly normal transaction of labor and money. But I like your thinking, because hey, people in Russia and other communists states were so much better off than those in the west, right? Even now, it is better to be an average Russian than an average American. Better not to mention to wonderful worker paradises of Cuba and North Korea.
For your information, I am not entirely certain (to put it very, very mildly) that I am happy with the direction to world seems to be heading. I just have a problem with you calling all labor exploitation.
Exploitation is all around us, it is hidden under an euphemism "opportunity" these days. Opportunity to get fed, for example, in exchange for 12 hours of sweat shop labor or breathing toxic chemicals for $8/hr. Of course, many people (especially economists) view transaction of labor and money under duress of fear of hunger, homelessness and dispossession (on labor part) as "normal". Nevertheless most of these perfectly "normal" transactions are impossible without saturating lower classes with survival fear, status fears are reserved for the people up the food chain. The fact that people accept that socially induced fear as "normal" says a lot about our world.
Soviet socialism was just state capitalism (state as one and the only remaining corporation), both private and state capitalism are rooted in the wage labor. Wage labor is rooted in master-slave relationships. Master-slave relationships are there to ensure "exploitation" i.e. small group of well deserving folks appropriating the lion's share of output (while not subjecting themselves to the most damaging and degrading varieties of labor).
Of course, the West outsourced the most outrageous varieties of exploitation to the Chinese comrades and Asian sweatshops that make Holland bubble possible, besides Holland is almost "communist" (from little what I know) compared to the American realities. Holland employers (willingly or not, I don't know) are restricted in so many ways in unleashing the ideology of "opportunity" on Holland' lower classes, so you may indeed have some illusions about the nature of the wage labor.
I would be upset if I had to work for them while these kids do nothing. I m not living in USA by chance.
I bet these kids will do the same , make babies, then ask money from government.
If I had to work for them, I would be sure to do the minimum to not pay tax. And why I should work? Would be easier to ask money from the government. I could stay at home playing games too...
I can tell you, this system will collapse soon.
I agree with you. I am guessing from another post of yours that you are Indian. I would just like to say that the reason people like you succeed in the US is that you take advantage of the opportunities we have here that people like you are describing do not take advantage of. They have everything they need to be successful, yet they would rather let the government/taxpayers take care of them. Meanwhile legal immigrants come from other countries and work two or three low-paying part time jobs while going to school and end up achieving their dream. America is still the land of opportunity, but there are too many Americans and illegal immigrants who would rather live like parasites off of the taxpayers instead of taking care of themselves.
And I agree with you the system is going to collapse for exactly the reason you state. Taxpayers are fed up with supporting other Americans who don't want to work and also illegal immigrants. It does kill your incentive to work when you see others have the same things you have without working for them. Meanwhile, we have American veterans who are homeless and elderly who are living in poverty. We need to stop giving money to able-bodied people who keep having children to collect more money, and to illegal immigrants, and instead take care of our veterans and our elderly. It is ridiculous that our "social safety net" is taking care of people who prefer to have babies they can't take care of and stay home rather than work to support them, as well as alcoholics and drug addicts. I personally know three (related by marriage) people who are alcoholics/drug addicts who are living off the system and receiving SS disability (disabled because he drank himself into "disability") and food stamps with no intention of ever working again. Instead they start their day drinking vodka. It is sickening that the rest of us are working to support these people.
This is going to be the future as more jobs are outsourced/automated. You will have only those in elite professions (engineering law, comp sci) while everyone else is on welfare.
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