Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Whatever, I am done with your argument. I work in Healthcare so I seriously doubt my job is going anywhere. You dont even know exactly what I do or where I work. So you cant comment on if I will have a job or not. My job is very different from Computer Science. And you so worried about people going to college. Dont worry about it. This is the way things are..get over it!! You sound bitter, you must have a worthless degree. Moving on....
I dont recall inviting you to the argument, and I couldnt care less that you drop out of it.
You keep living in your shell believing that you are a unique untouchable flower. I hope it works for you.
By the way, my degree is in Finance, and Ive been employed as an accountant most of my career if you must know. Then again, this argument isnt about me...never was. I get so sick of people like you trying to make arguments personal, when they arent.
Of course it's not! Who controls labor supply? Why not let the market control the labor supply? Anything else and those that have what we want are simply pulling up the ladder behind them.
The market doesnt control the labor supply. The labor supply is randomly determined by a whole bunch of people chasing a whole lot of different things. The market simply benefits from this chaos and propoganda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup
Pilots have been dealing with this issue for over a decade now. The well paying jobs have seen pay cuts of 50% before factoring in inflation and an expansion of jobs at the lower end of the contract carriers. This in turn means all of us at that level are competing directly with each other, which lowers pay. All the while training costs have been skyrocketing.
And you are ok with this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup
In the end it will work itself out. Only the rich kids and stupid kids will pay $80k-$100k for a degree + flight training to play airline pilot for a job that starts off at around $10/hr. Pilots at that level now, not seeing any advancement opportunity, will turn to other jobs.
It wont work itself out ever. As hindsight was explaining, people will rent chase in an ever downward spiral. Once being a pilot is seen as valueless, people will hop wholesale in to whatever career is seen as having more value (flavor or the month), and after that, they will hop somewhere else.
Why do you think, during the housing bubble, so many people stopped in their tracks, and became involved as mortgage bankers, house flippers, real estate finance professionals and real estate agents? Once that sunk, they picked up their crayons and bounced to something else. Its the same way with everything.
However, at some point, there isnt going to be anything that has "value" for the training. Wages will be so depressed because of such an abundance of trained people for every single job, there wont be anything to "jump" to.
However, at some point, there isnt going to be anything that has "value" for the training. Wages will be so depressed because of such an abundance of trained people for every single job, there wont be anything to "jump" to.
That only applies if our economy doesn't expand. When it expands there are many jobs that are created.
The market does control labor supply. Look at nurses. There was a shortage so pay went up. More people got into it. Shortage solved.
Of course it's not! Who controls labor supply? Why not let the market control the labor supply? Anything else and those that have what we want are simply pulling up the ladder behind them.
Pilots have been dealing with this issue for over a decade now. The well paying jobs have seen pay cuts of 50% before factoring in inflation and an expansion of jobs at the lower end of the contract carriers. This in turn means all of us at that level are competing directly with each other, which lowers pay. All the while training costs have been skyrocketing.
In the end it will work itself out. Only the rich kids and stupid kids will pay $80k-$100k for a degree + flight training to play airline pilot for a job that starts off at around $10/hr. Pilots at that level now, not seeing any advancement opportunity, will turn to other jobs.
You and I know why the pilot profession has a special case of wage spiral. It's called inelasticity of labor demand. In other words, even if you were to offer pilot positions for no monetary compensation, people would still line up to do the job. Yes people, it is THAT scary in the pilot profession. The reality is that such dynamics create a wage level where a livable income will eventually be impossible to attain for the median. It is already true for the median regional first officer, and the median regional CA complains they work too hard for the compensation they receive, nevermind the compensation they were aspiring to attain after that many years on the job, back when they set out to get trained. The only thing NOT precipitating that free fall is the collective bargaining agreements put in place by the unions, that's it. Granted, airline unions are generally as much rent-seekers as defense contractors are, but the point remains, left alone to the "market" to dictate, the airline pilot profession would have already materialized into what it is destined to become. A HOBBY JOB, one where people do it for fun and not compensation, and the only people able to do that would be people who derive their income from other sources. This obviously will lead to the first TRUE pilot shortage, which will be supplanted by foreigners willing to do that job for illegal migrant workers under the guise of cabbotage. That my friend is the pilot profession in a nut shell, a true case study in what this thread is talking about. The question is, will customers change their habits and start driving more instead of flying? Probably not, they'll continue to base their decision to fly with airline X over a 4 dollar difference in price in online travel sites. Maybe when airplanes start falling off the sky with incompetent red-eye commuting pilots from Asia and India (who may literally attempt to commute to work from Asia AND India!!!) then people might scoff at the airline option for travel.
-- break break--
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rei;
Having an MS for requirement is one of the ways gov't can control how many people can go into the field. Do you want people to be able to sit in for PE exam with a HS diploma?
Why not? Two aerospace engineering degrees and $1.30 gets me a cup of coffee....
I know for a fact within a year shadowing a person on the job, a high school graduate with a couple calc pre-reqs can in fact perform the median civil/mechanical engineering job without blinking. Add a couple computer language and programming classes for a buck fifty at the local community college and they can outright work for Lockmart and you couldn't tell the difference between an engineering degree holder and the high schooler; aero engineering is software engineering nowadays anyways.
I accidentally did some work for an architectural firm the summer before starting college. It wasn't until later that I realized I was working among mechanical engineers. I forgot about that experience but then 10 years later and two engineering degrees under my belt and I realized that I was, as a high school graduate, completely able to perform the duties of your run of the mill mechanical engineer in your medium sized draft/design shop, with no formal education other than watching a fool teach me AutoCAD and a 6-9 second introduction to engineering nomenclature. The PE? That test is a joke.
My point? If you want to pay me crap, and lets face it, 35-55K as a non-PE engineer working in some random regional outfit after coughing out 5 years of college debt, no social life and no income is effectively crap, then I should be able to NOT incur any more cost above and beyond my personal time in the completion of these "requirements" that allow me to beg for that job. That's the crux of this discussion.
College degrees are de facto high school diplomas, as such and because of their diluted value, they should be free. In a perfect world they could go back to being true discriminators, but you can't turn the clock on the floodgates, the only way for the degrees to go is free. In the absence of that end, it's a pure racket and profiteering scheme, and we as citizens need to challenge that system. Of course I'm personally attacking the education mafia, along with higher learning institutions and their payroll. If you happen to be employed in the education industry, particularly the collegiate level, you're a rent-seeker, as your income is based on a cemented scheme of price fixing. You remove those artifical barriers and college revenues drop like a rock. Some departments wouldn't be able to even justify their existence as people would no longer be willing to NOT attain a job for the education pursued at that department. As such, they would cease to exist and in general, college would constrict in size to those fields which happen to be marketable. If job-hopping and re-training is good enough for the masses, then academic curriculum re-tooling and labor flux at the drop of a hat is good enough for these institutions that currently profit from the scheme. This will not sit well with college labor and administration, oh well, we all gotta sip on that yellow water.
Now, your point about protectionism is noted. The AMA does an excellent job of keeping people out, which is why the medical profession remains the last bastion of wage preservation in this country among professions once touted by boomers as "win win" career choices. There's no question of if, but when the AMA no longer is able to sustain the wage spiral barriers, then people like whydoucare? will stop arching their nose skyward in the false belief that they have it made and there's no way their livelihood would ever be threatened, for they did "their homework", they are not prone to statistics, they are Lebron James.
The healthcare industry is currently the second biggest self-licking ice cream cone in this country, which happens to be part of the reason the populace is so economically choked, but they are next. Doctors, nurses, health insurance workers, pharma executives and upper management won't like it when they get told they've been rent-seeking too.
Once you debunk these mythical professions, you then start realizing that the dynamics are all the same regardless of the vocation chosen. In a society that's forced to over-train for a McJob, gold-rush dynamics dominate. This dynamic creates labor instability, just like goats on an airplane: they never spread out evenly, which would mean some at their own peril for the sake others, instead they all flock to the source of the rope till there is none and then they swing forward to the cockpit all at the same time to eat the pilot's shirt, causing the airplane to crash with the shift..This is our crapconomy today. Where we scoff at common sensical export-based non-inflationary monetary policy for a dog-eat-dog "go to college and then go to college again" profiteering and income diluting wage depression schemes, on your own dime mind you.
The law profession wasn't proofed against it, engineering wasn't proofed against it and mark my words healthcare and higher education, the two babies of the CNN talking heads, (you wonder why they never turn the spotlight on themselves and talk a little bit about their own profession, making 6 figures at the expense of hundreds of thousdans reporters making the square root of $uck all back home, hoping Ali Velshi dies on camera so they can have a shot at the money they went to journalism school for), will suffer the same fate. What are you going to do next Ms I'm a nurse and make above median income at the age of 25 and there's no way the world will get me now? Go back to school? On your own dime? Again? Yeah right. People marry rich and/or prostitute themselves for much less. People quite literally marry for a health insurance policy, just so that some doctor can continue to say his educational pursuits were economically solvent. Gimme a break, this thing is about to crack open and fools are those who believe they are special.... Matt 23:12, just sayin' ......
In the end the theoretical discussions are irrelevant, done wisely a good college degree is a great start to a white collar job. I could work at a grocery store for 5 years and maybe make $15 (real example). Right out of college I was making more then $20 (undergrad I worked my butt off with no debt). If nothing changed ever, the difference between the two in just wages is $400,000...plus the higher up you climb the more education people want to see.
The point is, this is how the world works. Everyone is different, every degree and job is different, and should determine what they want to do with their lives themselves based on the ending. Education and training are not 1 size fits all absolutes. However, you won't gain anything by protesting how the system works by trying to abstain or harping about how it's unfair. I'd rather play the game and sell out, I will end with more wealth, flexibility, and providing the best for my kids...then if I really feel strongly change things from the inside.
"You think I'm supposed to grow old, beating some trite old protest drum that people don't hear anymore? Please; protest is now just a backdrop for a Diesel clothing ad in a slick fashion magazine. My goal is to create a metaphor that changes our reality by charming people into considering their world in a different way. It's time — for me, at least — to be clever and seduce people by entertaining them. I'll never be heard if I'm always ranting and griping."
Chuck Palahniuk , "You Ask The Questions," The Independent Review
That only applies if our economy doesn't expand. When it expands there are many jobs that are created.
Most of the future "expansions" of the economy will be jobless. That is, they will be achieved through improvements in automation, science, and technology, which will squeeze more out of the same or less physical workers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelsup
The market does control labor supply. Look at nurses. There was a shortage so pay went up. More people got into it. Shortage solved.
The market wasnt "controlling" labor supply, just simply trying to influence its course. At the end of the day, the only people controlling whether or not they are trained as nurses are individual citizenry.
Everyone is different, every degree and job is different, and should determine what they want to do with their lives themselves based on the ending. Education and training are not 1 size fits all absolutes. However, you won't gain anything by protesting how the system works by trying to abstain or harping about how it's unfair.
When did it become ok simply to accept the status quo regardless of what it is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by subsound
I'd rather play the game and sell out, I will end with more wealth, flexibility, and providing the best for my kids...then if I really feel strongly change things from the inside.
Funny you mention your kids.....I wonder if you are going to be singing the same tune when your kids (or if we are all very lucky, grandkids) need a bachelors degree to work at Burger King, for Burger King wages.
In the end the theoretical discussions are irrelevant, done wisely a good college degree is a great start to a white collar job. I could work at a grocery store for 5 years and maybe make $15 (real example). Right out of college I was making more then $20 (undergrad I worked my butt off with no debt). If nothing changed ever, the difference between the two in just wages is $400,000...plus the higher up you climb the more education people want to see.
The point is, this is how the world works. Everyone is different, every degree and job is different, and should determine what they want to do with their lives themselves based on the ending. Education and training are not 1 size fits all absolutes. However, you won't gain anything by protesting how the system works by trying to abstain or harping about how it's unfair. I'd rather play the game and sell out, I will end with more wealth, flexibility, and providing the best for my kids...then if I really feel strongly change things from the inside.
"You think I'm supposed to grow old, beating some trite old protest drum that people don't hear anymore? Please; protest is now just a backdrop for a Diesel clothing ad in a slick fashion magazine. My goal is to create a metaphor that changes our reality by charming people into considering their world in a different way. It's time — for me, at least — to be clever and seduce people by entertaining them. I'll never be heard if I'm always ranting and griping."
Chuck Palahniuk , "You Ask The Questions," The Independent Review
Nah, all you're saying is that you're still better off than a starving ethiopian. That's hardly a position to argue for, all that says is that as a society, we're the frog in the pot. We'll take the boiling if it is done increments, rather than being thrown into an already boiling pot at once. Which is why escapism is a crucial economic powerhouse in our otherwise failing economy. Sports venues are still packed, stadiums still have corporate sponsors, Buffalo wild wings is still packed on thursdays.
Having a debate about these issues does not automatically bestow a life of martydom on those who care, but to argue a college degree is better just because it provides a marginally higher starting salary than a vocation that currently does not require one, is shortsighted. College degrees will become not de facto, but bona fide high school diplomas in the future, and then your argument that something is better than nothing will no longer hold true. So much for how things are. You are correct, as an individual, abstinence would accomplish little, but as a collective it would change the world. The crux is how to steer the cattle in that direction for their own good. Lobbysit steer the cowboys to legislate the behavior of the cattle all the time, why if it's good enough for them is it not good enough for us to attempt the same control? Simply "selling out" is not a valid answer, but it is evidence that as a society we haven't really been pressed for a long time, 1941, maybe '29. We're flabby and pusillanimous both literally and socioeconomically.
Americans scoff at the idea of an Europeanized social construct. People travel to Spain and learn their family structure of two households to a house, kids and grandkids on the downstairs, with mom and dad upstairs, no car, carpooling everywhere. It's cute there, but oh no hell would have to freeze over here in the states. That's for the uneducated class. Guess what, those people in Spain have master's degrees too, and some of their population densities are on par with the States, so it's not a Tokyo-style urban density that necessitates two to a house. We're going to become that society under the guise of "well a college degree out-of-pocket is better than no degree at all". If I wanted to live like Spaniards I would move to Spain, get my education for free, and go live on my parent's basement, eat chorizo and break for lunch until 3PM like they do, have paid healthcare, be taxed to death, not be able to drive boats, cars and fly airplanes, recreationally, and have a generally disparaging view of New World People. But I'd be damned if I'm going to sit in this country and quietly accept that fate without at least rattling some cages and making people uncomfortable enough to give a $hit in the process.
theoretical discussion? I don't think so, all these effect are happening today and we're all affected day to day in them.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
