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Why should it change? Because the cost to each invidual has risen to obtain the same salary. If I pay 20k for an education, I should get more money then my father, who didnt pay jack for an education. Instead, Im getting the same money or less.
People are getting a bit more money, enough to offset any increase in education costs. But generally speaking the jobs today require more skills than yesterday, but that is what happens as society advances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude
So has the debt load and so has science and technology. "Life style" or "material well being" is not a measurement of financial well being.
People's standard of living is certainly a measure of the financial well being of the nation. People live better today then they did 30 years ago.
Pilots starting out require around $45k in training costs out of pocket, then 6 months - 1 year as a flight instructor making around $15k/yr, then to an airline with 8 weeks training and $25k-$30k paid company training for a starting pay of around $11-$12/hr.
This is the same if not LESS than pilots were making 10-20 years ago NOT INCLUDING inflation.
The days of getting high paying manufactoring jobs are gone. And most of the time when jobs do not require a degree, a 1000 applicants will show up for 2 positions. I remember when I was younger people got jobs and they didnt reqire degrees. Now some secretarial posititons are asking for at least Bachelors degree. Students may be paying more for college compared to the wages but thats just the way it is now. You just have to research your major, I chose to major in science. A college degree may not guarantee you a job but it gives you more choices. Thats what I tell the teens at the Teen Center when I volunteer in this neighborhood that is full of poverty.
People are getting a bit more money, enough to offset any increase in education costs. But generally speaking the jobs today require more skills than yesterday, but that is what happens as society advances.
Those skills should have a dollar value though. They should not amount to the same wage, even though they are obtained by personal expense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id
People's standard of living is certainly a measure of the financial well being of the nation. People live better today then they did 30 years ago.
Standard of living is relative. Just because people have more crap today is not a function of their financial well being, its a function of science and technology reducing the cost of, or inventing, new technology.
It is completely illogical to compare a wealthy person in 1960 to one today by their possessions, and make some conclusion about their financial well being.
A college degree may not guarantee you a job but it gives you more choices. Thats what I tell the teens at the Teen Center when I volunteer in this neighborhood that is full of poverty.
How psyched do you think that is making those kids? Lets see, you can throw all your chips in to one bag, and if it doesnt pan out, well hey, you can always go back and roll the dice again, at your expense.
This economy is so liquid and mobile, that something in demand when a person entered college, could be completely out of demand when they leave.
I wonder how every one who went to college for real estate finance in 2003 felt when they graduated in 2007-2008 to a market that was shedding them like water.
Or how about the guy who went in to carpentry in the early part of the decade, and spent years getting his licenses, and now hes working at Lowes......nice.
How psyched do you think that is making those kids? Lets see, you can throw all your chips in to one bag, and if it doesnt pan out, well hey, you can always go back and roll the dice again, at your expense.
This economy is so liquid and mobile, that something in demand when a person entered college, could be completely out of demand when they leave.
I wonder how every one who went to college for real estate finance in 2003 felt when they graduated in 2007-2008 to a market that was shedding them like water.
Or how about the guy who went in to carpentry in the early part of the decade, and spent years getting his licenses, and now hes working at Lowes......nice.
Exactly, which is why there is no economic sense in forking out the expense for college in such a liquid economic environment. The argument that everybody is precipitating the race to the bottom by acquiring college degrees is noted, but the escalating cost of a college education is out of sync with that reality. If everybody is trying to keep up by going to college then the price of college needs to correct to that of the instrument a college degree is becoming in this market: a high school diploma.
Honestly, flooding the market with free college degrees will do more to correct the cost-returns imbalance than actually further restricting the entry to college. As this society has proved, economic barriers to entry are not something that makes parents and college aged people blink twice, they'll sign that promissory note without a care. We need to stop that. Access to credit needs to be further restricted, and student loans need to be made dischargeable at bankruptcy (which would fulfill the goal of disincentivizing lenders from loaning and profiteering). Will this happen? Of course not, the education lobby is too powerful.
The fact of the matter is that no matter how special you think you are, there are simply too many graduates each year than the jobs they all aspire to attain. Period. I have degrees in engineering, professional pilot certifications as well as post-graduate degrees and experience teaching at the college level. That's 3 distinct career prospects I could pursue professionally, and all of them are overwhelmingly saturated, this is to say, too many people vying for the same job. That says it all. Most people can't successfully translate a skillset into more than one profession, to find 3 careers flooded with applicants is just proof positive we're hosed. Hell, I'm twiddling my thumbs right now waiting on a civil service job, the only job prospect with a hope of providing me durable and stable income, and a 30% pension (<--what a joke, still, 401Ks are bunk), but the boomers won't give it up and the line is getting long and heated down here.
There's just no way around that, to quibble about how one's particular circumstances may or may not hedge you against the economic fact that there is too many people qualified and desiring job X than there are jobs X, is immaterial. There will still be people left holding the empty bag. The cost of attaining the requirements to qualify for job X will increase, while the aggregate compensation and overall marginal returns on investment of jobs X will further dilute. The race to the bottom madness has to stop and killing the education racket is the first step towards rebalancing our economy from a labor standpoint. To jump into this new economic paradigm thousands in the red is to seal your fate of always playing catch up, ending up in your forties pissed off and confused as to why a college education did not outright set you up for the material well being your parents were able to boast. And you would be justified in feeling that way with the exception of the fact that as many people were jumping off the cliff of financial insolvency before they took their first class in college, you didn't really HAVE to commit to that same fate.
Last edited by hindsight2020; 07-14-2009 at 08:34 AM..
Exactly, which is why there is no economic sense in forking out the expense for college in such a liquid economic environment. The argument that everybody is precipitating the race to the bottom by acquiring college degrees is noted, but the escalating cost of a college education is out of sync with that reality. If everybody is trying to keep up by going to college then the price of college needs to correct to that of the instrument a college degree is becoming in this market: a high school diploma.
Honestly, flooding the market with free college degrees will do more to correct the cost-returns imbalance than actually further restricting the entry to college. As this society has proved, economic barriers to entry are not something that makes parents and college aged people blink twice, they'll sign that promissory note without a care. We need to stop that. Access to credit needs to be further restricted, and student loans need to be made dischargeable at bankruptcy (which would fulfill the goal of disincentivizing lenders from loaning and profiteering). Will this happen? Of course not, the education lobby is too powerful.
The fact of the matter is that no matter how special you think you are, there are simply too many graduates each year than the jobs they all aspire to attain. Period. I have degrees in engineering, professional pilot certifications as well as post-graduate degrees and experience teaching at the college level. That's 3 distinct career prospects I could pursue professionally, and all of them are overwhelmingly saturated, this is to say, too many people vying for the same job. That says it all. Most people can't successfully translate a skillset into more than one profession, to find 3 careers flooded with applicants is just proof positive we're hosed. Hell, I'm twiddling my thumbs right now waiting on a civil service job, the only job prospect with a hope of providing me durable and stable income, and a 30% pension (<--what a joke, still, 401Ks are bunk), but the boomers won't give it up and the line is getting long and heated down here.
There's just no way around that, to quibble about how one's particular circumstances may or may not hedge you against the economic fact that there is too many people qualified and desiring job X than there are jobs X, is immaterial. There will still be people left holding the empty bag. The cost of attaining the requirements to qualify for job X will increase, while the aggregate compensation and overall marginal returns on investment of jobs X will further dilute. The race to the bottom madness has to stop and killing the education racket is the first step towards rebalancing our economy from a labor standpoint. To jump into this new economic paradigm thousands in the red is to seal your fate of always playing catch up, ending up in your forties pissed off and confused as to why a college education did not outright set you up for the material well being your parents were able to boast. And you would be justified in feeling that way with the exception of the fact that as many people were jumping off the cliff of financial insolvency before they took their first class in college, you didn't really HAVE to commit to that same fate.
I would literally give a rep comment for almost every post you make if this site would allow me. As usual, you are 100% on target here.
It is completely illogical to compare a wealthy person in 1960 to one today by their possessions, and make some conclusion about their financial well being.
If they live better, eat better, etc that is really all that matters. Of course it is due to increased productivity via technology. But so what?
How psyched do you think that is making those kids? Lets see, you can throw all your chips in to one bag, and if it doesnt pan out, well hey, you can always go back and roll the dice again, at your expense.
This economy is so liquid and mobile, that something in demand when a person entered college, could be completely out of demand when they leave.
I wonder how every one who went to college for real estate finance in 2003 felt when they graduated in 2007-2008 to a market that was shedding them like water.
Or how about the guy who went in to carpentry in the early part of the decade, and spent years getting his licenses, and now hes working at Lowes......nice.
Well I know this, I would never tell a teenager not to go to college because it could be much worse if you dont have a college degree at all. I will always promote education. Do your research when searching for a major. So many kids in the inner city have NO SKILLS at all. They are already not getting anywhere. What do you expect them to do? Live in poverty and dont even try. You gotta be kidding me. How can they compete?
Well I know this, I would never tell a teenager not to go to college because it could be much worse if you dont have a college degree at all. I will always promote education. Do your research when searching for a major. So many kids in the inner city have NO SKILLS at all. They are already not getting anywhere. What do you expect them to do? Live in poverty and dont even try. You gotta be kidding me. How can they compete?
Thats the thing, they have no choice other then to go to college, because its nearly impossible to do anything without a college degree. In 20 years, it will be literally impossible to do even the most menial job without a college degree.
Its a rock and a hard place and it shouldnt be that way. If its going to require a college degree to flip burgers, college degrees should be free.
Thats the thing, they have no choice other then to go to college, because its nearly impossible to do anything without a college degree. In 20 years, it will be literally impossible to do even the most menial job without a college degree.
Its a rock and a hard place and it shouldnt be that way. If its going to require a college degree to flip burgers, college degrees should be free.
Of course clueless Obama's resolution: Go to community college? This will help boost the economy?????
So everyone with bachelor degrees etc.. Thats your problem you went to school too long. Or maybe everyone can become nurses?
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