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The Russian economy did not collapse from within nor was their a revolution, the US was instrumental in the collapse of the USSR. But you are ignoring the point, you are suggesting the cliche that people won't innovate without massive amounts of profit on the line. Russia and a number of other countries shows that this is not true.
Yeah, I can't care about things "as far as you are concerned". I care about which system and policies produce the best standard of living for the greatest number of people. The US fails short on many levels. You are again just repeating your inaccurate claim that capitalism -> high standard of living. Yet the US never ranks top in measures of such, for example the US is 13 in the HDI. A number of socialist countries rank higher.
No sorry, you stated things that were flat out wrong. Your claim about the french system was just the cliche against socialized medicine, as if every socialized system suffers from the same problems!
Where do most people migrate to? To a variety of nations some of which are rather socialist. You do realize that tons of migrants (both legal and illegal) go to Europe as well as the US? So your "bottom line" supports what I'm saying, how "capitalist" a country is is not well correlated with how good that country is.
Ugh you serious? This country is almost bankrupt, medical costs are skyrocketing, the poor are getting poorer, and so on. This country is broken.
I will illustrate my point with an couple of experiences I had.
First one, back in the mid 70s I used to work as an electrician before I enlisted in the Army. In a construction site an engineer needed to get the exact spot of a column. He was asking for a plumb bob. There was not one availble at the moment. A brick layer put a ladder and took a rock, got up the ladder and and from the spot on the ceiling he let go of the rock. Here it hit the floor the bricklayer simply said "there it is sir". The engineer was so wrapped up with his theoretical mind and how things were taught in school to the point that he did not want to accept that as the spot. We marked it for him. He still left to look for a plumb bob. He came back with one to simply verify it was where the bricklayer had said it was.
The second one when I was in the Guld War I back in 91 was a high voltage technician and we were working on restoring power lines all over the country. One time we had to come up with some power needs at some power plant site. One of the officers, and engineer and his electronics expert were having a little bit of a hard time remembering some algebraic formulas to come up with some precise power needs. I told them I had been using some easier formulas based on the basic electrical concepts that would still give us the same results and I gave them the answer. They did not want to believe my answer and politely told me they were going to some place to look for some electrical literature. They found some books, looked it up and came up with my answer also.
The point? Even though I have a masters degree and many of my courses are in economics and business administration, I do not forget that often concepts in life are not as complicated as people make them look. What complicates them are the people. You can tell me all you want of how great other countries are and bad we have in comparison, yet, people in general look to where they think they have better chances in life, where they can provide better opportunties to their children, etc.
Again, not a very complicated observation. Where do people migrate to? Russia? China? Cuba? As ugly as it may sound, animals and humans do have something in common, survival. Rats, dogs, coyotes, etc. and humans, do move and migrate where they believe there is food, a more comfortable life, etc. Give all the data you want, and again, you and I will filter data with the bias of our own philosophical preferences. That is the bottom line. However, regardless of how much we debate what system is better, people are at this moment risking life and leaving loved ones behind to move where? To Russia? To China? What data support actual events when people look for a better life? China? Russia? Do you see Americans in hordes trying to emmigrate to those countries as people from those countries are trying to come over and join us? Those are the basics of life and survival just as the basics demontrated by a simple falling rock in the example above. People tend to get all tangle up in extensive economics principles and forget to look around more closely at people. They tend to keep telling people what is best for them with many intrusive government controls on our daily lives.
As far as medical health care. I will simply touch on this like this. I am not saying people should not get help from the government. I am saying that having a national program that covers Bill Gates is wasteful. We can still take care of our poor, children and our elder wisely without having an expensive system that wastes your and my taxpayer on people that do not need to be covered. To me there is a difference between social programs and socialist programs. I am for spending taxes on those that need the most but not to cover every single individual whether he needs it or not.
Finally, are we facing financial difficulties? I know we are. Solutions? To create a huge gigantic and wasteful health care system that even Bill Gates can use? Not my solution. We can do better with wiser choices.
As far as your reply on where people migrate. I stated before in a previous message that the more a country espouses capitalism the more people tend to migrate to it. France, the UK, and Canada are closer to capitalism than other contries. They are mixed economies as we are. Now, what is the ratio of migration to what countries in the world? Now, Europe is a lot closer to so many countries as the US to countries in the Americas. Again, what is the ratio of immigration to different countries? Also, why not look how many latin american countries people do migrate all the way to Europe as compared to the other side of the world countries moving to the US?
Look it up and maybe you can prove me wrong. Do a country by country comparison and let me know.
I do not make a claim we are at the top of everything. We are not. Other countries are better in some areas and so on. In the general sense we rank pretty much at the top. You may as others may tell me about mortality rate as compared to other countries. You know something, I will say that we are distroying ourselves, not so much because of an economic system but because of results of having such a high standard of living. We want more and more of everything. Our poor? What is the caloric intake of our poor as compared to other nations? What is the living space of our poor as compared to other countries? Are we starting to have health problems? Yes we are BUT because we eat so much we are starting to have diabetes problems at younger ages and and the same with high blood pressure, and obesity related problems. It seems anything in excess even if it is good can be bad, a very basic concept of health. I think that is where at leat part of the problem with us. We have become so selfish, narcissitic, etc. due to our excessive success as an economic power we became and are now distroying. If we are broke it is in part because we want to buy and possess so many things with money we do not have. We expect to have the latest and biggest of everything. Our own attitudes are killing us as a country. We are distroying our own system with our excessive demands. I would suggest you read books like "The Death of Grown Up" and the "Narcissism Epidemic" (There another good one but I do not remember the exact title that covers the consequences of being materialistic) and see how our expectations are breaking our social and economic systems.
This isn't the bottom line with Russia. In regards to the iraqi military, it would be folly to assume the destruction of that military was due to Russians having designed and manufactured the equipment. First with a few exceptions, the Russians like the USA simply doesn't supply its most advanced military equipment to other countries. Iraq after all is only a few hundred miles from the Russian border and Saddam Hussein was not the most trustworthy of partners. Furthermore, most of Iraq's advanced military equipment was destroyed during the first Gulf War with the assistance of the Russians who went as far as providing unlock codes that let the USA shut down much of the Iraqi command and control network.
Also, another one with all these complicated explanations. Whose tanks had longer range? Russians or Americans?
As far as intelligence between Russia and the US, nothing new. Even enemies can become allies against a common enemy. I am aware of the political science principle: Friendship binds men but National Interests binds countries.
Another complicated view. Only Russia fell because of their system? How about all the other satellite countries. In the end people revolted because of the life they had. Do not complicate things with all these theories. It is not a very complicated concept that you put walls around people not for their freedom, is it? Generally walled areas are for criminals isn't it? What else? To control people against their will? If so, why? Why would people need to be walled around be killed if they try to look for a better life if their system is so much better?
Again as to the the other member, do not complicate it. Simple fact, people do not need a wall around them if their government felt they provided the best system around. They did so because they knew people would flee their system. The same still exists in Cuba.
China is starting to do a little better now that they are embracing more capitalistic principles. The four Asian Tigers became economic powers from nothing by embracing capitalistic principles and turned away from many socialist economic principles.
^You are now speaking in euphemisms in response to a very detailed example that you brought up that wasn't correct. The world is much more complicated than America = Good, non-American = Bad. You seem to have completely missed the fact that while the Russians may have rejected their communist dictatorship, they are also quite content not to adopt the Anglo-Saxon style government and economic system that is in the USA. In fact there are still many people there who preferred the socialist state when compared to the unfettered capitalism that sat in during the Yeltson years.
Hell,I'm willing to put a freeze on ALL government spending,except of course service on the debt,because you know that number is going up!!!
All government spending is going to have to be radically cut in order to afford just the interest payments on our growing debt. The interest payments will crowd out other spending.
Of course, all of this is best case scenerio with interest rates low. If rates spike, we will not be able to afford the interest payments.
As far as freezing Social Security, can I say . No way in heck that will ever fly with the senior voters. You saw what happened this year. SS got a massive COL raise in January and now that we are in deflation, there was going to be no raise, but Obama wants to issue $200 checks to all seniors. We have to buy the elderly vote at all costs. Those are the folks who turn out to vote in every election. Mark my words, the older generation will not be denied. Of course, this comes at a heavy price for the youngsters but then again, Grandma "deserves" it. (how about the youngsters who will never even get a chance to build real wealth? How about the kids of today who have to compete with Chinese and Indian computer programmers? How about the kids of today who have no job security or pension? (but are expected to work 24/7 via Blackberry, e-mail, etc all for $12/ hr)
The war tax will NEVER pass either. It's posturing, pure and simple. (same as that bring back the draft bill) I do think that if we had a war tax and a draft, it might wake up J6P voter. Instead of hearing "We're fighting them over there so they don't come here" and "if you want to cut the military, and end these wars, then you are a terrorist who hates America" we might actually get some common sense.
The problem is we want it all and we don't want to pay for it. We can't have it all and we will definately have to pay for it, with interest. What happens in the next few years when we have to borrow just to pay the interest on the debt? Kind of like having to hit up your friend for the $30 minimum payment due on your credit card. And what about all of the short term debt that has to be rolled in the next few years?
It's going to be time to for sure as more of us wake up.
"Except of course the federal government does not control the money supply, rather the FED and its member banks. "
The Fed is a quasi-government organization. The President appoints the FED chair. All of the recent FED chairmen in the last 30 years have been vetted first as spokesmen for the President's Council of Economic Advisors. They're often acting in the the interest of federal government, ensuring that the government can finance its operations at the most favorable terms while balancing other objectives.
The Fed does not act in the interest of the federal government. It acts in the interest of the member banks that make up the Fed. Every cent printed by the fed is loaned to the federal government with interest. That is hardly in the federal government’s benefit.
You can tell me all you want of how great other countries are and bad we have in comparison, yet, people in general look to where they think they have better chances in life, where they can provide better opportunties to their children, etc.
All that for this point? To say it again, people are immigrating to a number of countries not just the US. But judging countries by the number of immigrants pouring into them is just silly, each country has different immigration laws. Some countries have fairly loose immigration policies (e.g., the US and Canada) where as some are very tough to get into (e.g., Japan). Japan has far fewer immigrants than Europe, does that mean Japan is worse than Europe? No...the Japanese are pretty xenophobic and their policies are not friendly to lower skilled immigrants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo
Again, not a very complicated observation. Where do people migrate to? Russia? China? Cuba?
Actually, China has a lot of immigration. I have no idea why you are mentioning Cuba or Russia. Both are pretty crappy and just in case you did not get the memo the Russia economy is capitalist now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo
I am saying that having a national program that covers Bill Gates is wasteful. We can still take care of our poor, children and our elder wisely without having an expensive system that wastes your and my taxpayer on people that do not need to be covered.
Are you serious? You see, this is the sort of insanity people that are against socialized medicine reduce themselves to. Socialized medicine is wasteful because the system would cover people like Bill Gates? You do realize that Bill gates will be paying into the system far more than people with average incomes right?
Also, you again repeat the inaccurate claim that its "expensive". There are few if any socialized medical systems that are more expensive than the US system! Not only that some of the best socialized medical systems are nearly half the cost of the American system. This sort of dogma is costing Americans massive amounts of money, a socialized system would be far cheaper. Which reminds me, why exactly do my insurance premiums keep going up 10~15% each year? Hmm....
But I know there is no hope that the US will implement a good health care system, the medical industry in this country is huge and there are 100's of billions on the line. They have every incentive to get the masses to believe that its "more expensive" and all the other inaccurate nonsense.
... Japan has far fewer immigrants than Europe, does that mean Japan is worse than Europe? No...the Japanese are pretty xenophobic and their policies are not friendly to lower skilled immigrants. .....
Japan is a country, Europe is a subcontinent of mutiple dozens of countries. It's an invalid comparison. It's also incorrect about Japan because until recently the country has been encouraging foriegn workers to come there to work simply because it didn't have enough working age population to support their industry. Xenophobic means fearful of foreign people and culture, and that certainly isn't a description of Japan. My experience there is that foreigners are welcomed there better than they would be in many parts of the USA.
Yawn, replace Europe with "France", "Germany" and so on. Apparently, the point went over your head.
And if you do you will find countries that fail your test. You were simply incorrect and making broad comments about Japan that are not based on any apparent first hand knowledge.
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. No way in heck that will ever fly with the senior voters. You saw what happened this year. SS got a massive COL raise in January and now that we are in deflation, there was going to be no raise, but Obama wants to issue $200 checks to all seniors. We have to buy the elderly vote at all costs. Those are the folks who turn out to vote in every election. Mark my words, the older generation will not be denied. Of course, this comes at a heavy price for the youngsters but then again, Grandma "deserves" it. (how about the youngsters who will never even get a chance to build real wealth? How about the kids of today who have to compete with Chinese and Indian computer programmers? How about the kids of today who have no job security or pension? (but are expected to work 24/7 via Blackberry, e-mail, etc all for $12/ hr) 
for sure as more of us wake up.
