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Old 09-21-2011, 06:54 PM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,911,001 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
And those of us in the trenches are telling you why it won't work. Why do you think technology is some magic bullet? I'll tell you what my class is like when I bring in the computers. I spend most of my time chasing kids off of email and games and trying to get them to actually work on what I want them to work on. Technology is a distraction not a solution!!! You don't seem to want to hear that.

Most kids are not intrinsically motivated to work on their own. Many kids are easily distracted by all the things they can do with a computer besides the work they are being asked to do. IMO, the only real use for computers in the classroom is requiring specific software be used for specific assignments so kids learn to work the software. There is no way I would want to baby sit a bunch of kids put in front of computers on a regular basis because I'd spend my time policing the sites they're on instead of answering questions. If you do that, you don't need a teacher. You can hire a baby sitter...of course, baby sitters get $2.50/child/hour so you'd be paying a lot more than you do for a teacher.
Our experiences differ, Ivory. I had my students in the computer lab for five lessons near the beginning of the school year. I limited the time there to the last half hour of the block and set up a very concrete set of lessons and objectives that they were to work through. With six classes of around 25 students each, over the five lessons I had only one student seriously off-task, and I caught her right away. There were three times that I saw students on other pages, only to find that they had done a spin-off search for something that they needed for the site that I had given them. I was amazed. They did really well, and I'm planning to take them back next week to begin a desktop publishing project. Most of them have never done anything like that before. At our school, a "project" usually consists of a bunch of pictures labeled with bubble letters more like what you might expect from fifth graders.

Keep in mind that this is an inner-city high school where the students are known for being undisciplined and hard to handle. I had virtually no problems whatsoever. The assistant principals who came to observe commented on how they were so much more engaged than they are in the classroom where they can't always get one-on-one attention.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:58 PM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,911,001 times
Reputation: 3504
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
You are twisting my words and your are beating around the bush. I would like to see the system improve. I did not train computer programmers and robotic engineers - your educational wizards trained them. Education, with the help of big cooperate America and government said that technology was the way to go. Computers get smarter everyday. We are on the threshold; but you donít want to take the next step.

I keep repeating myself that I never said all or nothing. I would just like to see us embrace the future. Nobody wants to talk about nationally accredited online courses.

You all have valid points. I used to be a hunter and I know how hard it is to get our young interested in the sport. They play the video games and they have action coming at them every second. You take these young gamers into the woods and tell them to sit on a stump all day, without seeing one deer, and they will not do it. I was lucky to get an hour out of them before they were bored. You need to get their attention and it isnít easy.
Then please untwist your words and explain what it is exactly that teachers were supposed to have been doing while the factory workers lost their jobs to robots and computers. I guess they did the same when livery stables lost their jobs to car dealerships and gas stations?

Paradigm shift happens. I've started telling my students to prepare to never have a job--only contract work. They need to develop a wide repertoire of skills and take responsibility for filling their days (and nights and week-ends) with meaningful remunerative employment.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:58 PM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
13,198 posts, read 10,601,780 times
Reputation: 9370
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
And those of us in the trenches are telling you why it won't work. Why do you think technology is some magic bullet? I'll tell you what my class is like when I bring in the computers. I spend most of my time chasing kids off of email and games and trying to get them to actually work on what I want them to work on. Technology is a distraction not a solution!!! You don't seem to want to hear that.

Most kids are not intrinsically motivated to work on their own. Many kids are easily distracted by all the things they can do with a computer besides the work they are being asked to do. IMO, the only real use for computers in the classroom is requiring specific software be used for specific assignments so kids learn to work the software. There is no way I would want to baby sit a bunch of kids put in front of computers on a regular basis because I'd spend my time policing the sites they're on instead of answering questions. If you do that, you don't need a teacher. You can hire a baby sitter...of course, baby sitters get $2.50/child/hour so you'd be paying a lot more than you do for a teacher.
I’m talking to you about today’s realities. The DOW was down $283 today. We lost our triple A rating recently. My county alone had 900 foreclosures up for sheriff’s sale last week - there were only a handful that actually got bids. Every time we turn on the news; we hear more bad news - USP is cutting 30,000 jobs, etc.

So, how do you expect more school funding? It is not going to get better; there will be more layoffs - with or without the newer technology.

When you can teach our young to make real products and export them - to give our dollars worth; then we can afford more teachers again. Until then you have many hard years in front of you.

When it comes to technology; we left the genie out of the lamp. You can try; but you cannot turn the back the hands of time. The programs will get better; that’s progress.
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Old 09-21-2011, 07:11 PM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
13,198 posts, read 10,601,780 times
Reputation: 9370
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
Then please untwist your words and explain what it is exactly that teachers were supposed to have been doing while the factory workers lost their jobs to robots and computers. I guess they did the same when livery stables lost their jobs to car dealerships and gas stations?

Paradigm shift happens. I've started telling my students to prepare to never have a job--only contract work. They need to develop a wide repertoire of skills and take responsibility for filling their days (and nights and week-ends) with meaningful remunerative employment.
I have been fighting against temporary work for some time. I actually blame that for a lot of the mess that we are in today. Temporary workers do not buy houses - they rent; because they might not live in the area tomorrow. They donít even buy heavy or big ticket items for the apartments - they will only have to move them.

Companies used to hire casual workers. They used to give many of the full time employee perks to their casual employees. They also would draw from their casual pool for full time positions. When the temporary positions first started about a decade ago; employers did offer some full time positions. Today; many employers never offer their temps full time employment. That does not help to keep loyal workers - they need a carrot on the end of the stick.

I donít hear anybody trying to solve this problem. I donít think anybody knows it is a problem.
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Old 09-21-2011, 07:19 PM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,911,001 times
Reputation: 3504
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
I have been fighting against temporary work for some time. I actually blame that for a lot of the mess that we are in today. Temporary workers do not buy houses - they rent; because they might not live in the area tomorrow. They donít even buy heavy or big ticket items for the apartments - they will only have to move them.

Companies used to hire casual workers. They used to give many of the full time employee perks to their casual employees. They also would draw from their casual pool for full time positions. When the temporary positions first started about a decade ago; employers did offer some full time positions. Today; many employers never offer their temps full time employment. That does not help to keep loyal workers - they need a carrot on the end of the stick.

I donít hear anybody trying to solve this problem. I donít think anybody knows it is a problem.
Again, what were teachers supposed to be doing about the factory workers losing their jobs? You raised the point. Please clarify.

We only had the factory model of employment for less than 200 years. It is realistic to expect the employment model to change. It took longer than that to change from institutionalized slavery to becoming wage-slaves to industry.
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Old 09-21-2011, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
13,198 posts, read 10,601,780 times
Reputation: 9370
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
Again, what were teachers supposed to be doing about the factory workers losing their jobs? You raised the point. Please clarify.

We only had the factory model of employment for less than 200 years. It is realistic to expect the employment model to change. It took longer than that to change from institutionalized slavery to becoming wage-slaves to industry.
If it was up to me and it isnít; I would make us more self sufficient. I donít know how - because we have a global mess. Everything is connected to everything.

We have only about three months of strategic oil reserves - this is if we were frugal.

We are selling our farm land and our timber to foreign buyers. That is good in a way that we have an actual export. However; we could be exporting our security - what happens if the foreign buyers ship this yearís crop out of our country before a global war? We outsource our military technology - which can and will eventually be used against us.

You are the teacher. Find out how to overcome our obstacles and come out stronger and smarter. If Iím lucky; I will live another twenty years. These problems will haunt us for generations.
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Old 09-21-2011, 07:45 PM
 
2,920 posts, read 2,911,001 times
Reputation: 3504
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
If it was up to me and it isnít; I would make us more self sufficient. I donít know how - because we have a global mess. Everything is connected to everything.

We have only about three months of strategic oil reserves - this is if we were frugal.

We are selling our farm land and our timber to foreign buyers. That is good in a way that we have an actual export. However; we could be exporting our security - what happens if the foreign buyers ship this yearís crop out of our country before a global war? We outsource our military technology - which can and will eventually be used against us.

You are the teacher. Find out how to overcome our obstacles and come out stronger and smarter. If Iím lucky; I will live another twenty years. These problems will haunt us for generations.
I won't ask a fourth time. I will assume that you can't or won't answer.

I am a teacher. I am not a politician, nor an economist. I transmit knowledge and skills to the next generation while trying to instill both wisdom and an appreciation for it.

I don't see a problem with a paradigm shift to non-permanent employment. I see a problem with a failure to adapt to the new paradigm. That adaptation is something that I am actively teaching to my students.
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Old 09-21-2011, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,731,184 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
Our experiences differ, Ivory. I had my students in the computer lab for five lessons near the beginning of the school year. I limited the time there to the last half hour of the block and set up a very concrete set of lessons and objectives that they were to work through. With six classes of around 25 students each, over the five lessons I had only one student seriously off-task, and I caught her right away. There were three times that I saw students on other pages, only to find that they had done a spin-off search for something that they needed for the site that I had given them. I was amazed. They did really well, and I'm planning to take them back next week to begin a desktop publishing project. Most of them have never done anything like that before. At our school, a "project" usually consists of a bunch of pictures labeled with bubble letters more like what you might expect from fifth graders.

Keep in mind that this is an inner-city high school where the students are known for being undisciplined and hard to handle. I had virtually no problems whatsoever. The assistant principals who came to observe commented on how they were so much more engaged than they are in the classroom where they can't always get one-on-one attention.
As I said, the only use I see is for kids to use specific software for a specific purpose. If I were teaching software, I think the kids would be more interested. Unfortunately, they can find more interesting things than most of the educational stuff I find on line.

My kids procrastinate. On-line means they can do it at home which means social hour has begun. My kids would rather do anything later. Most of them do get it done. They just see no need to do it NOW.

For the most part, my kids have grown up with technology in their homes. Computers are not novel. They know how to play on them. And they know that anything I ask them to do on them they can do later at home on their computer.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 09-21-2011 at 08:27 PM..
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Old 09-21-2011, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
13,198 posts, read 10,601,780 times
Reputation: 9370
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
I won't ask a fourth time. I will assume that you can't or won't answer.

I am a teacher. I am not a politician, nor an economist. I transmit knowledge and skills to the next generation while trying to instill both wisdom and an appreciation for it.

I don't see a problem with a paradigm shift to non-permanent employment. I see a problem with a failure to adapt to the new paradigm. That adaptation is something that I am actively teaching to my students.
The adaptation you are teaching is an acceptance of non-permanent employment. That is the reality. I just donít think that it will last. It is self destructive. It doesnít encourage the spending that built this country and provided the funds for government and our educational system.

I donít know what you were supposed to do as factory workers lost their jobs. But; I do know that the financial realities are catching up to education. Nobody is making money on their investments. Interest rates are at all time lows. One poster, on the work forum, posted: After five months of unemployment and 400 applications and 16 interviews they finally got a job.

It still gets back to working smarter - for all of us.
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Old 09-21-2011, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,731,184 times
Reputation: 14499
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
Iím talking to you about todayís realities. The DOW was down $283 today. We lost our triple A rating recently. My county alone had 900 foreclosures up for sheriffís sale last week - there were only a handful that actually got bids. Every time we turn on the news; we hear more bad news - USP is cutting 30,000 jobs, etc.

So, how do you expect more school funding? It is not going to get better; there will be more layoffs - with or without the newer technology.

When you can teach our young to make real products and export them - to give our dollars worth; then we can afford more teachers again. Until then you have many hard years in front of you.

When it comes to technology; we left the genie out of the lamp. You can try; but you cannot turn the back the hands of time. The programs will get better; thatís progress.
As to funding education, you get what you pay for. Or what you don't. My years will be no harder than the next guy's. If push comes to shove, I'll peddle my engineering degrees in another country if I have to.

What do I have to do with industry making products? You seem to be laying things on teachers that teachers have no control over. I don't determine where things are manufactured or what is manufactured and school isn't about teaching people to make things.

Teachers also have nothing to do with the DOW. I'm fully aware that our dollar is poiaws to collapse but there isn't a thing I can do about that. Washington controls this game and all they want to do is spend money we don't have pushing us closer and closer to a total collapse of our economy. It'll happen. We'll do what Eurpope and Germany did. We'll have some very lean years, learn to make do and to make what we need and, very slowly, build something new.

You're really trying to blame the wrong people and, at this point in time, I think spending money on technology is a fools game. I don't think we're going to see any bang for our buck.
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