Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Quote: Decades ago, when the Finnish school system was badly in need of reform, the goal of the program that Finland instituted, resulting in so much success today, was never excellence. It was equity.
The U.S. public school system already has "equity" as its goal rather than excellence. That is what Brown v. Board of Ed., Title IX, and a host of other issues are about. I believe the practical result of "equity" in this country is often that the higher is brought down to the level of the lower, and the rich go to private school.
I agree with this. I need more information about Finland's "equity in education," and how exactly it works, but something about the idea bothers me.
In the United States we have classrooms where gifted children are learning alongside students with severe behavioral, emotional, and/or learning disabilities. Although this sounds good in theory because it's "fair" to the child with the disabilities, I think it can hinder the learning of the other children and slow down the class as a whole. In fact I see pretty much this scenario play out in just about every urban public school classroom I've been in. As far as I can tell, I don't think grouping all of these kids together works very well, and if Finland is somehow doing making it work, I'd love to know the secret.
I agree with this. I need more information about Finland's "equity in education," and how exactly it works, but something about the idea bothers me.
In the United States we have classrooms where gifted children are learning alongside students with severe behavioral, emotional, and/or learning disabilities. Although this sounds good in theory because it's "fair" to the child with the disabilities, I think it can hinder the learning of the other children and slow down the class as a whole. In fact I see pretty much this scenario play out in just about every urban public school classroom I've been in. As far as I can tell, I don't think grouping all of these kids together works very well, and if Finland is somehow doing making it work, I'd love to know the secret.
People sometimes assume incorrectly that equity in education means all students are the same or will achieve the same outcomes. In fact, equity in education indicates all students have access to a high-quality education, regardless of where they live, who their parents are or what school they attend. In this sense, equity in schooling ensures that differences in educational outcomes are not the result of differences in wealth, income, power or possessions.
Quote:
First, in Finland, special education is defined primarily as addressing learning difficulties in reading, writing, mathematics or foreign languages. In the United States and in many other nations, students are identified as having special education needs if they meet criteria for a variety of disabling conditions such as sensory and speech-language impairments, intellectual disabilities and behavioral problems.
Second, in Finland, special education needs are identified early, and prevention is a common strategy. As a result, a larger percentage of children are identified as special-education students in Finland than in the United States. In Finnish comprehensive schools (corresponding to K-9 education in the United States), almost one-third of all pupils are in part- or full-time special education.
Finally, Finnish special education is called learning and schooling support and encompasses three categories of support for those students with special needs: general support, intensified support and special support.
The USA does not have an education system. Each individual state does, and 30 states have populations less than Finland's 5.3-million, and a high degree of freedom to educate the state's children according to it own state priorities.
In my state, the feds pressure our education system a great deal. It started with the Carter administration. Bush's administration ushered in NCLB and then Obama's brought RTTT and Common Core. These programs have been extremely onerous on teachers. Now, I went into education expecting to very hard for the students who need it the most. The feds, however, continue to change the rules and unfairly punish teachers working with the most challenging students. Someone 3000 miles from me that has an entirely different education paradigm than my community's is making decisions that I must implement. Why is some educrat in Washington more qualified than me to decide what is best for my students?
Quote:
Americans have been using this cop-out for decades, that the USA is too big and complex to act like a grownup. For example, Canada's single-payer health care plan started out as provincial plans, first in Saskatchewan, and there is nothing to stop an American state from having health care like Saskatchewan's or schools like Finland's.
Canada's health care system is not all that great. I did a research paper on it in college. Everyone has "insurance", but they do not have the level of health care that we have. If I were diagnosed with a serious illness, I would much prefer to be here with no insurance than there with their insurance.
The fact of the matter is that Canada has one-tenth of our population. You can't ignore the problems that that would bring by instituting a national health care system.
Quote:
And about 10% of Finns do not speak Finnish at home. And Finland has no border control at all, within the Scandinavian zone, just a sign stating the speed limit in Finland (50 mph), like a US state border.
I could not find a source on that, but, regardless, I am unconvinced that the Finns face our immigration issues.
Currently about 47 percent of Finnish students at age 15 go to vocational school. The vocational school is a secondary school for ages 16–21, and prepares the students for entering the workforce. The curriculum includes little academic general education, while the practical skills of each trade are stressed. The education is divided into eight main categories with a total of about 50 trades.
Come on, the Finns are not complete panty-waists. The speed limit in cities is 50 kph (kilometers per hour) and on limited-access highways it's 120 kph (about 75 mph).
But on regular rural highways, not limited access, it is 80 kph. (50 mph).
The fact of the matter is that Canada has one-tenth of our population. You can't ignore the problems that that would bring by instituting a national health care system.
You're still ignoring my point that Canada doesn't have a national system, and the US could also have single-payer insurence without it being national, and each Finland-sized state having their own, as they do now with Medicaid. To this day, each Canadian province has its own health care system, with different rules and premiums, and Revenue-Canada simply funds it by assessing and collecting ALL provincial taxes and re-disbursing the funds to the provinces. If you missed that point, I'm giving you a D on the paper you did on the Canadian syatem in college.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Everdeen
I could not find a source on that, but, regardless, I am unconvinced that the Finns face our immigration issues.
America's "immigration issues" has resulted in a majority of our high school valedictorians and top scholarship recipients being the sons and daughters of immigrants, mostly from Asia.
You're still ignoring my point that Canada doesn't have a national system, and the US could also have single-payer insurence without it being national, and each Finland-sized state having their own, as they do now with Medicaid. To this day, each Canadian province has its own health care system, with different rules and premiums, and Revenue-Canada simply funds it by assessing and collecting ALL provincial taxes and re-disbursing the funds to the provinces. If you missed that point, I'm giving you a D on the paper you did on the Canadian syatem in college.
It is still far closer to a national system than ours. And as far as health care goes, ours is better. Closer to nationalized does not equate to better. If you miss that point, I'm giving you an F in comprehension.
I think there's much to be learned from Finland, but would be impossible to replicate their results until we replicate all the other good things going for the Finns. Let's make sure our kids are all receiving decent healthcare, have access to decent, safe housing, their parents have high-quality childcare before the kids even enter school, and then maybe we can start making some better comparisons with Finland. When it comes to what kids get out of their education, school is only one part of the whole picture.
It is still far closer to a national system than ours. And as far as health care goes, ours is better. Closer to nationalized does not equate to better. If you miss that point, I'm giving you an F in comprehension.
Better in what way. Be specific.
Are you talking about waiting times? Wait times are long for non-emergency procedures, but not long for emergencies or life-threatening conditions. Are you talking about the quality of the doctors?
There are, of course, problems with both systsms, however....
Quote:
Put into an international perspective, however, Canada’s system looks to be relatively well liked. A 2011 Gallup Poll found that 57 percent of Canadians felt “satisfied” or “very satisfied” with their access to health care services (in the United States, that number stood at just 25 percent).
What American liberals tend to forget is that the rest of scandinavia is not doing well at all, so it makes more sense to look at the differences between Finish Schools, American Schools, and Scandinavian Schools.
Pay, for a high school teacher with 15 year experience. Adjusted for living costs.
US: 48000 (needs to add compensation, approximately 20K, which is paid through taxes in Scandinavia)
Finland: 43000
Sweden: 37000
Norway: 39000
Denmark: 58000
So if you just assume the liberal model works, then you really need to explain the rest of Scandinavia. In fact one of the reasons Finland does so much better than the rest of Scandinavia is the quality of the teachers and the discipline in the classroom. Liberals oppose firing bad teachers, they oppose merit pay, they oppose evaluation, all who should contribute to better teachers. Finland may not have all of that, but it is difficult to become a teacher, so the teachers are good already. Another factor is probably the swapping of teaching styles, the more relaxed relationship with teachers, etc.
Liberals do exactly the same thing. Look at the aspects they like about the Finish system and ignore the ones who don't. For instance I heard very few liberals compare wages in Finland with the US or expenditure per student.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
