why do students take german or french vs spanish and chinese? (course, science)

[thedwightguy]

French is the language of diplomacy, covers a lot of countries.

German is really hard. An English lawyer I know did his undergraduate in German and said it was the hardest thing he's ever done. German would be useful in export and you see Germans often in management roles so adult language skills might really pay off for you.

Chinese is a life long immersion and the subtle variations are very difficult to master.
Spanish? I regret not taking it but where I am we are just now starting to see elites show up from Mexico and Columbia

[masonbauknight]

Originally Posted by thedwightguy

French is the language of diplomacy, covers a lot of countries.
German would be useful in export and you see Germans often in management roles so adult language skills might really pay off for you.
Chinese is a life long immersion and the subtle variations are very difficult to master.
Spanish? Where I am we are just now starting to see elites show up from Mexico and Columbia

English is the language of international diplomacy! Has been since the 1940s (and since the 1960s, even in ex-French/Belgian African colonies). French is useful for Canadians, notably east of Winnipeg, but not for Americans. It's a language we learn because we like it. Study of French has declined markedly since the 1960s in the U.S. and in every English-speaking country except for Canada and India.

German: useful for import/export, but so is every major language: Mandarin, Spanish, French, Portuguese. Yes, it is not easy. Unless an American or Canadian loves German, he/she shouldn't bother.

Mandarin has become more important, but you must learn it well (with a good accent and mastery of the tonal system and other horrible difficulties). Otherwise native Chinese-speakers will answer you in English, and English will become the default language in 15 seconds.

City-Data is mostly a U.S. site and its users are largely Americans. Here, Spanish is the default foreign language. You actually will encounter speakers of Spanish in most U.S. states (even if they often speak excellent English). The chances of actually being able to use your Spanish are far higher. Mandarin: much lower. French and German: almost never. Something to consider.

[guawazi]

Originally Posted by davidv

In any event, Spanish and French are more globally versatile than Chinese. While there are more Chinese speakers in the world, they are concentrated in a single country. Learning Chinese is a fad. It will help you only in China, Taiwan, and Singapore.

Don't forget, Chinese is also a second language for many South East Asian countries. It's is spoken in Vietnam, Malaysia, Cambodia, Laos, etc. I've had many Vietnamese and Thai friends that couldn't speak English, but we could converse in Mandarin.

[nightbird47]

Originally Posted by omaraz

Because they take a language that is interesting to them to meet their graduation requirement. In most cases they are not taking a language because they plan on becoming bi-lingual.

Exactly. When I took German it made reading middle English and especially Old English poetry/stories much more simple since many of the words are still the same in German. And the Spanish I couldn't prounuce (tried before and will never be able to trill an r) would be laughed at by local spanish speakers. And took French in private school when young and its a spelling nightmare.

I enjoyed taking German. The other thing it did that the others I tried didn't since they were too hard to use was give a REAL understanding of how language gets structrured and how English was. When I took the PSAT test some of the verbs they tested I translated into German then back into English since when I took that the idea was that grammar would stint 'creative growth' so it was very lightly tread on.

If you make someone take a language they don't want to they'll do what they have to to pass the class then immediately abandon it forever.

[guawazi]

Originally Posted by hvl

When the Lingua Franca is your own language you don't have to learn anything else.

You don't have to, but language is a gateway to another culture. Of the developed nations, Americans in general are considered the most ignorant of other countries and cultures. Despite the amount of immigrants we have living here. It's quite embarrassing when living abroad and many of your friends are from European nations and speak at least 2 languages with 3+ being normal. Sure you can read books about German history in English, or converse with French friends in English, but a lot of things are revealed only through knowing the language itself.

Moreover, people of that country respect you so much more when you have made the effort to learn their language. This affects everything from business, to politics, to education. People still don't get this in America. Someone from China that might be indifferent towards you about doing business, or even a colleague that speaks fluent English, will treat you so much differently it's not even funny. You don't realize this until you've tried.

[guawazi]

Originally Posted by masonbauknight

@zhugeliang. Even if that's true, much of the Chinese in New York is still Cantonese (in all three Chinatowns). Moreover, less than 1 percent of Americans speak Chinese at home, and this includes Cantonese and other dialects. Many older Chinese-Americans still don't speak Mandarin very well.

Exactly, many older Chinese-Americans. Younger generations, as in under 40, will speak Mandarin as well as Cantonese.

Originally Posted by masonbauknight

Except for Chinese enclaves in California, or specific business firms, where will an American be able to use Mandarin to justify the study of such a difficult language? That was the point of the OP.

I can think of a few places. The State Department, the Navy and Coast Guard, the FBI, the CIA. They beg to have people that can speak it. In fact, I'm keeping a couple of these options in my back pocket for consideration. MANY international companies where you might not be able to use it all the time, but will be seen as an asset regardless. You don't spend years 'mastering' Mandarin so you can speak it on the streets and with your neighbors. You learn it partly because people that work cool jobs will want to hire you if you can (and also have some other skills).

The justifiable reason is also in the fact you gain massive cultural insight and a global perspective, and people of that country and culture respect you more. Also, for a lot of people the study of a language (Mandarin in particular) is in the challenge. A lot of people who have learned Mandarin to a fluent level will have almost forgotten why they are studying it in the first place. It's about accomplishing something that not many others can, and people respect that. It's almost like climbing Everest, except it's possible to apply what you've learned in the real world.

Originally Posted by masonbauknight

Finally, most Chinese speakers in the U.S. speak competent or very good English. You will have to speak Mandarin at a very good level indeed or else English immediately becomes the default language. If you live close to a Chinese enclave, you might have some practical use for your Mandarin. Otherwise, you will only really use it (and master it) in China. Big difference.

I'll agree about the mastering, and if you don't speak it well people will default after a period. But if you do speak it well, it's not hard to hold conversations... Also, don't forget about Taiwan or Singapore or many South East Asian countries. Ever been to a Chinese restaurant (not PF Changs or Panda Expess for christ sake)? You can use it there and magically become best friends with the waiters. It's not hard to find Mandarin speakers here in the U.S. Even in the smallest of towns. If you say it is, trust me, you're not looking hard enough.

And I said before, Chinese isn't a language that needs to be learned. It's not something that you study because your parents said it might be helpful in the future. You do it because:
1. you enjoy learning it and like a challenge
2. you want to expand your cultural understanding of the world
3. people that also speak that language will like you more, regardless of your level
4. companies and organizations that deal with people that speak that language will like you more, even if you don't use it on a regular basis
5. you receive the permanent label of being smart, hard-working, adventurous, and cool as ****.

[masonbauknight]

@guawazi. I agree with most of your post. But as a speaker of four languages myself, I know how much time is required to reach even an "intermediate-plus" proficiency -- the bare minimum needed in an international company or in the State Department. Mandarin takes many years of solid work; the tonal pronunciation and the writing system are an absolute nightmare for Westerners. The goal is to learn Mandarin above the Chinese-menu-ordering level. For that, you must find a bilingual immersion school and begin study at a young age -- still not possible in most of the US -- or you will never attain the proficiency of a Chinese immigrant (and native speaker) like you.

Learning a language at a proficiency level for most jobs requires far more study than that available in standard American high school or college courses. For practical purposes, Spanish is the best foreign-language choice (without majoring in the language), as you will be able to speak, read, and write it much faster, and use it more often.

[guawazi]

Originally Posted by masonbauknight

@guawazi. I agree with most of your post. But as a speaker of four languages myself, I know how much time is required to reach even an "intermediate-plus" proficiency -- the bare minimum needed in an international company or in the State Department. Mandarin takes many years of solid work; the tonal pronunciation and the writing system are an absolute nightmare for Westerners. The goal is to learn Mandarin above the Chinese-menu-ordering level. For that, you must find a bilingual immersion school and begin study at a young age -- still not possible in most of the US -- or you will never attain the proficiency of a Chinese immigrant (and native speaker) like you.

Learning a language at a proficiency level for most jobs requires far more study than that available in standard American high school or college courses. For practical purposes, Spanish is the best foreign-language choice (without majoring in the language), as you will be able to speak, read, and write it much faster, and use it more often.

I don't think the intention of high school and college language programs is to make the student fluent, but to get them interested enough and confident in their abilities to want to live abroad for further study. If they succeed in that, then it's mission accomplished for them. After all, the study of language is also the study of culture, and you're probably interested in living in that country for some time. If not, then I question whether you are really interested at all. International companies and organizations like the State Department value people who also have international living/working experience.

I didn't start formally learning Mandarin until I was a Junior in college (I taught myself for a while before that). I got a scholarship to study in China for 1 year at a university and taught English for 3 years after that. I feel I made the largest strides the first year I was there and was fully conversational after that point. Attaining fluency and upping my reading proficiency to an acceptable level took another couple of years though. So overall, I needed roughly 5-6 years with 4 of those in China. If you started in high school I bet you'd only need a year in China. My listening is definitely the strongest (strong enough to understand most things in the news) followed by speaking then reading. Knowing stroke order is important, but learning to write by hand is unnecessary. I still struggle a bit discussing topics like politics or technical business stuff, but rarely struggle in normal conversation. Not bad for a mostly introverted personality.

I must admit, since I came back in August of last year I haven't had much luck securing the ideal job that can utilize my language ability and my major study of International Relations (though there are many out there!). Partly because I currently don't live in a state that has many of these jobs, and because they're very competitive, probably with many ivy league applicants. However, I threw my resume up on a job hunting website and was bombarded with marketing and public relations jobs to the point I just stopped responding to them. A lot of the entry level jobs I applied to in my state I received an almost immediate response for interviews. Is that solely because I can speak Chinese and lived in China? I don't think so, but I'm sure it's something that definitely got their attention.

[Gfab1]

I personally study French because I find it to be a beautiful language, and I am greatly interested in French culture. I realize that languages such as Chinese and Arabic are potential moneymakers and "up and coming" languages, but if that was my main reason to learn a language, I'd go with Russian since I am also very interested in Russian culture. Not that I don 't care at all about Chinese or Arabic language and culture- I do- but other languages and cultures happen to interest me more. Also, there is a lot to be said, imo, about not having to learn a completely foreign alphabet: it's something that makes a new language much more difficult to learn than the ones that use the same alphabet as English.

[Linda_d]

Originally Posted by BarqCider

ok I get Chinese is hard, but so is german. In the business world, both the latter will be more important than german or French in terms of business. Sure in the ideal world, you know every language out there.

Not if you want to work in Europe.