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What does "bright average" mean? I thought that one would preclude the other. Or are you referring to those with an IQ score that's just a little over the average? If the average is 100, then perhaps you're referring to those with an IQ in the 105-110.
What are your criteria for determining which adults are above average intelligence? Advanced degrees? A scarlet "G" embroidered on a shirt. I wouldn't be surprised if an anti-intellectual culture and a lack of support during childhood have resulted in a great deal of squandered talent.
Comparatively, money is poured into supporting the bottom half of students. I don't see why we can't, as a society, throw a few more nickels at the top half, especially the top third. I believe that "results" in adult life spring from investment (time & resources) in the potential displayed by above average children, be they "just bright", geniuses, or somewhere in between. On the other hand, many (Americans) around me believe in self-revealing talent. I think that attitude is an extremely risky proposition.
"Bright average" is hard to define, of course. I don't know that the top half to third of kids aren't getting resources spent on them, e.g. teacher training for AP classes, free tuition at community colleges in some districts if the HS doesn't offer a course that meets their needs, etc.
This is very true. What many people mean by G&T is really just bright average children. This is the group that I don't think needs special treatment other than to get the bottom out of their classes. It's the bottom that slows down the pace of a class, however, I don't think you need special classes paced just for the top. I don't think there's any benefit in the long run to doing that. When I look around, I do not see nearly as many gifted adults as we seem to think we have gifted children in our schools. We need to quit defining gifted as smarter than average and walk away from the idea that just because a child can handle going faster/deeper they need to go faster/deeper. Sometimes the best thing to do is just let them bloom brightly where they are.
One of the reasons we may not be seeing many G&T adults around is that they spent their prime brain growth years bored and disengaged.
We had a group of Swedish high school students stay with us who were studying to take a calculus exam that juniors in Sweden would be taking in a month. It was a level of calculus that was not even offered as AP in our district's high schools.
I asked if they were in an advanced program and they said no, that everyone on the college track in Sweden was required to pass this course.
Calculus has widespread uses in science, engineering and economics and can solve many problems that algebra alone cannot. They were nervous, but excited about the test. None seemed to be stressed to the point of suicide over a rigorous math curriculum.
Does Sweden have more G&T kids than the U.S.?
Talk to professors in a graduate science program at how prepared our kids are compared to those from other nations. I've heard several say that a good chunk of American kids drop out over the first year as they can't keep up the pace of students from other countries who've had a more rigorous academic education.
I first became aware of this when I helped to coordinate a conference on rare earth at a local university. ("Rare-earth elements are critical components in modern electronic technologies, ranging from TVs, fluorescent light bulbs, cell phones and computers to "green" magnets in electric motors that power hybrid cars and generators used in wind turbines. Rare earths are essential to medical diagnosis equipment and almost all military systems." )
Many of the folks attending were employees at the Ames Laboratory in Iowa, but they also came from all over the country and all over the world.
One of my jobs was passing out registration badges. There were several hundred attendees. Only a handful sounded like they were native English speakers, fewer than a dozen. The combination of letters on their name badges supported my observation.
In a field that had widespread and essential applications, most of the U.S. researchers and leaders had been recruited from other countries.
The Information Age is here. Can we afford to squander the brainpower of any of our kids, including the most capable ones?
It is terrific that public schools helped Jodie.p.77.Reserves' sons become feed store managers and trombone players and power lifters. Also commendable that they provided top notch health care to her son with Type 1 Diabetes.
But we also need students mastering advanced calculus and quantum physics... in the years ahead.
We are sacrificing our nation's future not to mention the future of students who are capable of so much than serving as science buddies for kids who can barely read.
30 years after A Nation at Risk and stunningly few of the Commission’s recommendations have been enacted.
Who thinks we are going to avoid paying the piper for a mediocre public education system? Who thinks squandering the potential of our brightest students bodes well for the future?
What does "bright average" mean? I thought that one would preclude the other. Or are you referring to those with an IQ score that's just a little over the average? If the average is 100, then perhaps you're referring to those with an IQ in the 105-110.
What are your criteria for determining which adults are above average intelligence? Advanced degrees? A scarlet "G" embroidered on a shirt. I wouldn't be surprised if an anti-intellectual culture and a lack of support during childhood have resulted in a great deal of squandered talent.
Comparatively, money is poured into supporting the bottom half of students. I don't see why we can't, as a society, throw a few more nickels at the top half, especially the top third. I believe that "results" in adult life spring from investment (time & resources) in the potential displayed by above average children, be they "just bright", geniuses, or somewhere in between. On the other hand, many (Americans) around me believe in self-revealing talent. I think that attitude is an extremely risky proposition.
My criteria for adults would be they stand out. I find the percentage of adults who truly stand out is very small. Certainly much smaller than the percentage of kids who are touted to be "gifted". As a teacher, I find that many "gifted" kids are simply ahead but ahead doesn't mean gifted.
I googled IQ ranges and this is what came up. Your 105-110 range would be average. According to this, as a teacher, I should see about 4 gifted kids per year and that's about right. However, I find that they don't need me to challenge them. They do it on their own. They ask deeper questions and delve into the material more than the bright average students who do what they need to to get their A and that's it.
Intelligence IntervalCognitive Designation
40 - 54Severely challenged (Less than 1% of test takers)
55 - 69Challenged (2.3% of test takers)70 - 84Below average
85 - 114Average (68% of test takers)
115 - 129Above average
130 - 144Gifted (2.3% of test takers)
145 - 159Genius (Less than 1% of test takers)
160 - 175Extraordinary genius
The reason we don't pour money into the top is they are already have the advantage. The money needs to be spent on the kids who don't have an advantage not on the ones who do. As both a parent and a teacher I'm not convinced that money spent on the top actually accomplishes anything that wouldn't be accomplished anyway. The truly gifted don't seem to need someone to polish their giftedness. They do it on their own. I don't see exceptional adults coming out of these programs. I spent 17 years in engineering and you'd think I would have met a lot of gifted people. I met a lot of people who were considered gifted as children who were really just brighter than average as adults and a very few gifted people.
Dh and dd#2 are in the gifted range using this data. Dh does not stand out as an adult. As dd#2 gets older, she stands out less and less as her peers catch up to her. What she is today is a teenager who learns quickly. Does learning quickly warrant a special program? I don't think so. I'm not sure it ever did. We placed her into a G&T program starting in 2nd grade and all that happened is she was ahead for a few years and then her peers started catching up. I find myself wondering what the point was of having her ahead at all. In her case all that happened is she started high school before she was emotionally ready to start high school. Dh never was in any kind of G&T program. Interestingly, dd#1 was placed into the G&T program a year after transferring to the school with the program in spite of having only a high average IQ. She did well in the program but I can't say it did anything for her that being in a regular class wouldn't have except that it bolstered her self esteem to be counted in that group. I'm in the same IQ range as dd#1. The only complaint I have about my education is that I need to understand and up through high school they seem to want you to memorize and regurgitate which I cannot do, however, I don't think a G&T program would have helped here. For the most part they seem to be faster versions of the typical program. I needed something different not because I was that much smarter than average but because I don't learn the typical way.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 04-22-2014 at 09:02 AM..
@GotHere: I don't think these anecdotes are all borne out in fact, especially the alleged lack of preparation of American students. These Swedish students offered no proof, I assume, this was just general conversation, right?
Education in Sweden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
** Swedish 15-years-old pupils have the 22nd highest average score in the PISA assessments, being neither significantly higher nor lower than the OECD average.[12]**
The Wiki article gives a pretty good overview of Swedish education. Significantly, just over half of Swedish students get a vocational education in high school.
My criteria for adults would be they stand out. I find the percentage of adults who truly stand out is very small. Certainly much smaller than the percentage of kids who are touted to be "gifted". As a teacher, I find that many "gifted" kids are simply ahead but ahead doesn't mean gifted.
I googled IQ ranges and this is what came up. Your 105-110 range would be average. According to this, as a teacher, I should see about 4 gifted kids per year and that's about right. However, I find that they don't need me to challenge them. They do it on their own. They ask deeper questions and delve into the material more than the bright average students who do what they need to to get their A and that's it.
Intelligence IntervalCognitive Designation
40 - 54Severely challenged (Less than 1% of test takers)
55 - 69Challenged (2.3% of test takers)70 - 84Below average
85 - 114Average (68% of test takers)
115 - 129Above average
130 - 144Gifted (2.3% of test takers)
145 - 159Genius (Less than 1% of test takers)
160 - 175Extraordinary genius
The reason we don't pour money into the top is they are already have the advantage. The money needs to be spent on the kids who don't have an advantage not on the ones who do. As both a parent and a teacher I'm not convinced that money spent on the top actually accomplishes anything that wouldn't be accomplished anyway. The truly gifted don't seem to need someone to polish their giftedness. They do it on their own. I don't see exceptional adults coming out of these programs. I spent 17 years in engineering and you'd think I would have met a lot of gifted people. I met a lot of people who were considered gifted as children who were really just brighter than average as adults and a very few gifted people.
In over 40 years in health care, you'd think I would have met a lot of gifted people, too. I mean, back when I was a young nurse, being a doctor was considered the height of attainment, and doctors do have more education than most people you meet on the street. (Before Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, etc) I agree with the bold. I met very few I'd consider "gifted".
One of the reasons we may not be seeing many G&T adults around is that they spent their prime brain growth years bored and disengaged.
Explain Einstein. I don't buy this. I don't think the gifted become ungifted if we don't handle them correctly because we see gifted people coming out of typical education programs. They're rare but true giftedness is rare.
If we count as gifted just the kids with IQ's above 130 (and I would argue that is actually too low), we're talking the top 3%.
In over 40 years in health care, you'd think I would have met a lot of gifted people, too. I mean, back when I was a young nurse, being a doctor was considered the height of attainment, and doctors do have more education than most people you meet on the street. (Before Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, etc) I agree with the bold. I met very few I'd consider "gifted".
I think what happens is we mistake ahead for gifted with kids. However, ahead today doesn't mean ahead for the rest of your life.
Here's a great example:
Dd#2 started playing the piano at 3 and composing at 6. At 6 she would have been considered gifted. However, by 9 most of her peers in her classes were also composing and a few of them passed her by by the time they were 12. Giftedness isn't how early a child does something. It's really how fast they progress once they start. The kids who started composing at 9 and passed her by by 12 were the truly gifted ones. Dd was just early. She lacked a passion for composing that slowed her progress so all that happened is her peers caught up. I think this is what happens with the academically gifted. I think for the most part their peers catch up so they don't stand out anymore.
@GotHere: I don't think these anecdotes are all borne out in fact, especially the alleged lack of preparation of American students. These Swedish students offered no proof, I assume, this was just general conversation, right?
Education in Sweden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
** Swedish 15-years-old pupils have the 22nd highest average score in the PISA assessments, being neither significantly higher nor lower than the OECD average.[12]**
The Wiki article gives a pretty good overview of Swedish education. Significantly, just over half of Swedish students get a vocational education in high school.
I would argue that we don't do enough to prepare our students but that's a different argument. IMO we don't expect enough of ALL of our students. The problem isn't we don't serve the gifted. It's we set the bar too loo for all of them. People tend to live up or down to your expectations. Our kids live down to ours.
@GotHere: I don't think these anecdotes are all borne out in fact, especially the alleged lack of preparation of American students. These Swedish students offered no proof, I assume, this was just general conversation, right?
Education in Sweden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
** Swedish 15-years-old pupils have the 22nd highest average score in the PISA assessments, being neither significantly higher nor lower than the OECD average.[12]**
The Wiki article gives a pretty good overview of Swedish education. Significantly, just over half of Swedish students get a vocational education in high school.
In 2012 PISA assessments, American students scored 24th in reading, 28th in science, and 36th in math.
Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS) assessments show similar standings.
As to half of the students in Sweden getting vocational education, what is wrong with being an electrician, plumber, hair stylist, auto mechanic, administrative assistant...?
I would argue that we don't do enough to prepare our students but that's a different argument. IMO we don't expect enough of ALL of our students. The problem isn't we don't serve the gifted. It's we set the bar too loo for all of them. People tend to live up or down to your expectations. Our kids live down to ours.
Sums it up to a "t".
When our son was in middle school, he told us if they ran soccer like they do schools, no one would want to play.
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