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As I've said before and I'll say it again - anyone who has any argument with what someone else has is free to attempt to become what the other person is (occupationwise) and reap the same 'benefits'. We are not forced into our occupations. We are all free to try for any job that interests us.
As I've said before and I'll say it again - anyone who has any argument with what someone else has is free to attempt to become what the other person is (occupationwise) and reap the same 'benefits'. We are not forced into our occupations. We are all free to try for any job that interests us.
I'll agree. I'm not here to complain about my job and benefits, simply to show that Ivory's experience and continual comparing what she has or hasn't to what she remembers from her previous position is not necessarily representative of "everyone but poor teachers" which is her mantra. Maybe she had a cush job before. Maybe she just worked for a good strong company, or perhaps the rose colored glasses of hindsight are doing their thing. Idon't know. All careers have their pros and cons. Not just teachers.
And some people wouldn't know happiness or contentment if it knocked at their front door. They'd be complaining they should have used the bell instead.
As I've said before and I'll say it again - anyone who has any argument with what someone else has is free to attempt to become what the other person is (occupationwise) and reap the same 'benefits'. We are not forced into our occupations. We are all free to try for any job that interests us.
Yup. The only occupation we really need to worry about is our own. If you want what someone else has, go for it. No one is stopping you. I want higher pay. I'm never going to get it in this profession so I've been applying for engineering jobs. I have my first interview for an engineering job next Tuesday. I don't know if I'll get it but the fact I have an interview is encouraging. I've been throwing my resume out there ever since I realized I'd never make a reasonable wage at this job and only had a couple of nibbles that went nowhere. Hopefully this will be my year to get back into engineering. I'll have two in college next fall and I really need the money.
I'll agree. I'm not here to complain about my job and benefits, simply to show that Ivory's experience and continual comparing what she has or hasn't to what she remembers from her previous position is not necessarily representative of "everyone but poor teachers" which is her mantra. Maybe she had a cush job before. Maybe she just worked for a good strong company, or perhaps the rose colored glasses of hindsight are doing their thing. Idon't know. All careers have their pros and cons. Not just teachers.
And some people wouldn't know happiness or contentment if it knocked at their front door. They'd be complaining they should have used the bell instead.
You really don't get it do you? I compare to my previous profession to show that what teachers have/want isn't unreasonable at all. People want to say we should make part time wages because we ONLY work 190 days per year when we work many more than that. Teachers work just as many days as everyone else. We're just not paid for them and we work them mostly in 10 months out of the year. The summers off are nothing but comp time for time we've already worked so it's illogical to think that our pay should be less because we work less because we don't. *I* happen to work more hours as a teacher than I did as an engineer. My engineering job was a 40 hour a week job. IF I had worked more, however, I would have been paid for it. Teachers are only trying to get paid for what they do and they have that right.
I've given up. I'm trying to get back into engineering because I just can't afford this job anymore. When I hired in they showed me a salary scale that should have had me in the mid 50's by now but they are not giving steps and there's no hope of getting them any time soon. So I'll do what I need to do to put my kids through school. Let's hope the predictions are right and there really is a shortage of engineers by the end of the year. The fact I have an interview is a good sign. If they're interviewing someone like me (50 something who has been out of engineering for several years) the market must be getting tight. While I'll miss the kids and especially things like science club, math club and robotics, I'm looking forward to having TIME OFF. I miss my weekends being mine. I miss evenings belonging to my family. I miss vacations actually being vacations instead of time to catch up. I miss being able to afford to go somewhere on vacation. I want something different so I'm going for it. If you do, you can too.
As to teachers who stay in the profession, they have every right to fight to better their situation. Anyone in any profession does.
I'll agree. I'm not here to complain about my job and benefits, simply to show that Ivory's experience and continual comparing what she has or hasn't to what she remembers from her previous position is not necessarily representative of "everyone but poor teachers" which is her mantra. Maybe she had a cush job before. Maybe she just worked for a good strong company, or perhaps the rose colored glasses of hindsight are doing their thing. Idon't know. All careers have their pros and cons. Not just teachers.
And some people wouldn't know happiness or contentment if it knocked at their front door. They'd be complaining they should have used the bell instead.
I'm also not complaining. I'm just pointing out that what one person said a teacher's beginning salary should be is what my salary IS less than a year before retirement becomes a possibility.
I'm also not complaining. I'm just pointing out that what one person said a teacher's beginning salary should be is what my salary IS less than a year before retirement becomes a possibility.
And I'm not at all arguing that some teachers are vastly underpaid. Just the perceived notion that the entirety of the rest of the working world is living it up while teachers alone come home after working all day and do more work at home, for no addional pay or time.
Ivory seems to think teachers have a lock on uncompensated work. She thinks the rest of us only work 9-5, come home and never deal with work until we walk through the door again the next day. She continually wants to count all those unpaid hours as ballast against having summers off when in fact, to be fair, she'd also have to include the unpaid hours everyone else does too. Which she conveniently neglects to do. Not to mention, the summers, even if some days are spent honing skills or other work related tasks, they are generally free from the everyday stress of dealing with clients, bosses and emails on a continual basis. Many of us, even when we do get a week or two off, aren't really away from work, we are available by cellphone and email for "emergencies" (which usually is code for no one else knows what to do or has the time to cover your job because we are so understaffed, and this can't wait until you come back).....so it's not the same quality of time that 6 weeks over the summer is.
Yes, we are all free to do other things and pursue other careers. That includes teachers. And yes, as we age and have years invested in a career, the job search becomes increasingly difficult, and some of us choose to stay in our jobs for practical reasons. Welcome to life - we all age and have other obligations which can keep us from moving on to those other pursuits. Not. Just . Teachers.
Last edited by maciesmom; 01-10-2015 at 02:46 PM..
Count yourself among those who only hear what they want to hear and ignore the rest.
Yes, I believe teachers are often times (not always) underpaid and underappreciated - it is a tough job, no question. However, your continual arguments about how much more teachers work than anyone else is tiresome. You keep comparing how much YOU work now, to how much YOU worked as an engineer - years ago. What you don't seem to comprehend, after years of people telling you, is that you are not alone. Many non teachers also work for hours after they come home at night, and on weekends for no additional pay or comp time - they are called salaried middle managers. I'd venture to say we are all (or at least a majority of us) are paying substantially more for our health insurance than we were 10 years ago. I know I am. Most of us are at the mercy of our employers for our retirement - and many of us would love to be able to take our PTO without spending time most days checking and returning emails during our 2-3 week of vacation (per year), then be expected to come back "refreshed" and fulfilling our employers idea of a work-life balance (as long as nothing slips through the cracks while we're gone - frankly, sometimes taking PTO is more stressful than not). And we do this for 52 weeks per year; so yes, having summers off does indeed need to be considered when looking at salary.
Many of us are happy to be employed through these difficult times and hope that eventually, things will improve - our companies will be stable enough to hire again and/or we will either be promoted or find something less stressful.
We just don't have an entire forum on which to express our frustrations.
So, you have NO vacation time. No one I know works 52 weeks a year. Some new employees work 50 weeks, but many employees work 48 to 49 weeks. I would also bet that your health insurance while it is more now than it was in the past is paid for at the same rate or slightly lower rate than teachers pay.
My son is a chemical engineer. He works mostly regular hours when he is in the office. He works more if he is on site at a refinery. His pay is much more than a teacher's pay. When he is in the office, he takes Fridays off or comes home early. His benefits are much better than the teacher benefits here as well. He travels for work, but the side benefit of that is mileage so he can fly off all over the world on vacation. He was recently in Singapore on vacation. He is taking the kids to London on vacation soon.
So, you have NO vacation time. No one I know works 52 weeks a year. Some new employees work 50 weeks, but many employees work 48 to 49 weeks. I would also bet that your health insurance while it is more now than it was in the past is paid for at the same rate or slightly lower rate than teachers pay.
My son is a chemical engineer. He works mostly regular hours when he is in the office. He works more if he is on site at a refinery. His pay is much more than a teacher's pay. When he is in the office, he takes Fridays off or comes home early. His benefits are much better than the teacher benefits here as well. He travels for work, but the side benefit of that is mileage so he can fly off all over the world on vacation. He was recently in Singapore on vacation. He is taking the kids to London on vacation soon.
I do have vacation...you are correct, I should have included those weeks. But again, not even close to the amount of weeks teachers get. And I am generally available during those weeks. And it's never more than 2 weeks at a time because being gone that long is just not doable from a work standpoint. Having 6 weeks off, on a yearly and predictable schedule, as well as 2 weeks over the holidays, regardless of whether you got those weeks last year and this year it's someone else's turn, is indeed a benefit to be considered when looking at the entire employment package.
As far as my health insurance? $800 is my out of pocket - which is all that I really care about. It's ok coverage but not as good as in years past and better/cheaper than my husbands.
Good for your son. Sounds like he is doing well. That does not make his experience representative of everyone but teachers either. The point was not that some people do not have all kinds of lovely pay and benefits but that teachers are not the only ones who don't.
Last edited by maciesmom; 01-10-2015 at 03:47 PM..
You really don't get it do you? I compare to my previous profession to show that what teachers have/want isn't unreasonable at all. People want to say we should make part time wages because we ONLY work 190 days per year when we work many more than that. Teachers work just as many days as everyone else. We're just not paid for them and we work them mostly in 10 months out of the year. The summers off are nothing but comp time for time we've already worked so it's illogical to think that our pay should be less because we work less because we don't. *I* happen to work more hours as a teacher than I did as an engineer. My engineering job was a 40 hour a week job. IF I had worked more, however, I would have been paid for it. Teachers are only trying to get paid for what they do and they have that right.
I've given up. I'm trying to get back into engineering because I just can't afford this job anymore. When I hired in they showed me a salary scale that should have had me in the mid 50's by now but they are not giving steps and there's no hope of getting them any time soon. So I'll do what I need to do to put my kids through school. Let's hope the predictions are right and there really is a shortage of engineers by the end of the year. The fact I have an interview is a good sign. If they're interviewing someone like me (50 something who has been out of engineering for several years) the market must be getting tight. While I'll miss the kids and especially things like science club, math club and robotics, I'm looking forward to having TIME OFF. I miss my weekends being mine. I miss evenings belonging to my family. I miss vacations actually being vacations instead of time to catch up. I miss being able to afford to go somewhere on vacation. I want something different so I'm going for it. If you do, you can too.
As to teachers who stay in the profession, they have every right to fight to better their situation. Anyone in any profession does.
No, she gets it. However, what you had before is not what is normal. I don't know anyone who works outside of the government who is going to get a pension. Everyone pays for benefits, and everyone who is not a salaried worker or government employee (the government employees I know have VERY cushy jobs...I know not the case everywhere) works extra without getting more money or complaining about it all the time.
Also, remember that not every teacher has as little time "off" as you. Even the science teacher at a very high ranking high school who used to post here a lot said you pile a lot of the work on yourself because you work very inefficiently. I've said before that the teachers I know love their time off, and they do have a lot. They also feel fairly compensated. The teachers I know don't work weekends and bring very, very little work home. They are enjoying their lives.
No, she gets it. However, what you had before is not what is normal. I don't know anyone who works outside of the government who is going to get a pension. Everyone pays for benefits, and everyone who is not a salaried worker or government employee (the government employees I know have VERY cushy jobs...I know not the case everywhere) works extra without getting more money or complaining about it all the time.
Also, remember that not every teacher has as little time "off" as you. Even the science teacher at a very high ranking high school who used to post here a lot said you pile a lot of the work on yourself because you work very inefficiently. I've said before that the teachers I know love their time off, and they do have a lot. They also feel fairly compensated. The teachers I know don't work weekends and bring very, very little work home. They are enjoying their lives.
That's why I also compare to what is normal as well. Normal is weekends off about 2 weeks vacation and 10+ holidays or about 240 days per year. Teachers report around 190 days per year. However, we work more than we report. All a teacher has to do is work the equivalent of 50 days extra in 40 weeks of school or over the summer to be where the average person is hours wise. We do that. There is no way I could do this job without working the weekends. That's when I grade and prep. You have to do it sometime. Every teacher I know spends hours on evenings and weekends catching up on what they can't get done during the day.
I compare myself to myself as an engineer to show how ridiculous it is to say teachers deserve part time pay. Why was I worth $90K as an engineer when I actually worked fewer days/hours as an engineer than I do as a teacher? This isn't about hours or days. It's about putting teachers down and devaluing the work we do. Yes I get 10 weeks off during the summer but that's because I work weekends during the school year. People act like the only time teachers work is when they are at school and that just isn't true. If I were paid for every hour I work, like I was as an engineer, I'd be making big bucks.
Edited to add: Around here a pension isn't unusual. Most of my family work jobs that will pay a pension. Some pretty good pensions. Dss has the best pension/benefits of anyone I know. He's in construction. His benefits ROCK. I have a hard time believing this but he says he'll retire with 100% of his pay at age 50. All of the engineers I know are working for companies that pay pensions but that is changing for new hires. It's even changing for teachers. If I hired into the district I work for today, I'd be on a defined contribution plan. If I get back into engineering that's what I expect. While many people have pensions through their companies, they aren't offering them to new hires.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 01-10-2015 at 05:07 PM..
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Yup. The only occupation we really need to worry about is our own. If you want what someone else has, go for it. No one is stopping you. I want higher pay. I'm never going to get it in this profession so I've been applying for engineering jobs. I have my first interview for an engineering job next Tuesday. I don't know if I'll get it but the fact I have an interview is encouraging. I've been throwing my resume out there ever since I realized I'd never make a reasonable wage at this job and only had a couple of nibbles that went nowhere. Hopefully this will be my year to get back into engineering. I'll have two in college next fall and I really need the money.
