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Indeed, there certainly isn't a comparison in that sense but I doubt the OP was trying to say that Finnish teaching courses as on par with MIT or Harvard, more that they are Finland's own equivalent, in the same way that the top University in a particular State would be its State's most selective University, so the teaching courses in Finland are amongst their most selective programs in their most selective Universities.
That is exactly what was meant. At least the OP hasn't been back to correct any misperception.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natsku
My opinion is that the social welfare system plays a huge part in the success. Limiting poverty, getting social services involved quickly when issues present (schools usually have asocial worker assigned) and school health care making sure that all kids have decent health care makes it easier for the kids to concentrate on school as they don't have to worry about eating, or seeing a doctor, or their parents beating them every night............
They're making so many cuts at the moment, both to social welfare and to education, that I fear this good system will suffer soon.
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1st bold:
True in the US, also.
2nd bold:
most school systems conduct health screens, including dental (both since at least the 1960s), as well as also doing BMI evaluations of students. The last has been the past several years.
3rd bold:
Public schools in the US are almost universally enrolled in the FARM program which provides both breakfast and lunch. Free. Some systems run that program year round to include the summer.
4th bold:
Schools can't control that whether it's in the US, Finland or Upper Volta.
None of these are a person! And even if the names were provided, are they prominent on a world-wide level? I'll bet an average person anywhere in the civilized world could't name a single Finn, not even the name of the leader of Finland.
Just because other people are ignorant, doesn't detract from real achievements. Finns just aren't good at publishing their own brand, so to speak. You are coming from an Anglo-Saxan bias, you probably don't even realise that many things you use or come across were invented, created or built by people outside of the Anglo-Saxon sphere, including Finland.
That is exactly what was meant. At least the OP hasn't been back to correct any misperception.
.
1st bold:
True in the US, also.
2nd bold:
most school systems conduct health screens, including dental (both since at least the 1960s), as well as also doing BMI evaluations of students. The last has been the past several years.
3rd bold:
Public schools in the US are almost universally enrolled in the FARM program which provides both breakfast and lunch. Free. Some systems run that program year round to include the summer.
4th bold:
Schools can't control that whether it's in the US, Finland or Upper Volta.
Providing health screens isn't the same as ensuring that every child has full access to health care so didn't even try to pretend that it is. And you really can't seriously be arguing that the US is equal when it comes to social welfare, its just not. The US spends its money differently and has different priorities and different methods, it just does not provide the same level of safety net and help that Finland does.
That is exactly what was meant. At least the OP hasn't been back to correct any misperception.
.
1st bold:
True in the US, also.
2nd bold:
most school systems conduct health screens, including dental (both since at least the 1960s), as well as also doing BMI evaluations of students. The last has been the past several years.
3rd bold:
Public schools in the US are almost universally enrolled in the FARM program which provides both breakfast and lunch. Free. Some systems run that program year round to include the summer.
4th bold:
Schools can't control that whether it's in the US, Finland or Upper Volta.
Providing health screens isn't the same as ensuring that every child has full access to health care so didn't even try to pretend that it is. And you really can't seriously be arguing that the US is equal when it comes to social welfare, its just not. The US spends its money differently and has different priorities and different methods, it just does not provide the same level of safety net and help that Finland does.
As far as health care goes, some of it is cultural. My insurer just raised the deductible for ER visits (quadrupled it, actually). I called to find out why and the answer was because too many people were using the ER instead of a regular doctor and the company was trying to cut that back by raising the deductible.
As far as health care goes, some of it is cultural. My insurer just raised the deductible for ER visits (quadrupled it, actually). I called to find out why and the answer was because too many people were using the ER instead of a regular doctor and the company was trying to cut that back by raising the deductible.
Again its not the same, you don't have a universal right to a certain standard of living written into your constitution - Finland does.
And you know as well as I do that there are people in the US that are in the income zone that doesn't benefit from Medicaid yet cannot afford decent insurance, or least there used to be before your healthcare reforms, has that improved? I expect there are similar stories for other benefits - the lower middle class being in the squeeze zone.
Again its not the same, you don't have a universal right to a certain standard of living written into your constitution - Finland does.
And you know as well as I do that there are people in the US that are in the income zone that doesn't benefit from Medicaid yet cannot afford decent insurance, or least there used to be before your healthcare reforms, has that improved? I expect there are similar stories for other benefits - the lower middle class being in the squeeze zone.
You and I are arguing over tangential issues.
Bottom line, imposing a Finnish style education model in Finland, the population of which is less than many US Counties, works there. In a nation with literally thousands of school systems (one state, PA, has 500) is next to impossible.
Not to mention some of the laws and policies the US has regarding suspension and expulsion.
Over the last 50 years the US has spent $16T on poverty issues. The result? The poverty rate has stayed pretty much stagnant for the last 30 years. The only group that has seen a more or less permanent diminuation in the rate of poverty is the one of those over 65.
As a retired 30+ year high school teacher I'm going to let out a little known, dirty secret. EVERY SINGLE EDUCATION REFORM, every one, imposed, adopted and implemented over the last 30 years had one aim: bring up the education level of those, of whatever ethnic background, who were failing, dropping out and becoming general burdens on society. And not one of them has worked.
As I said much earlier in this thread, schools reflect the communities in which they're located.
Bottom line, imposing a Finnish style education model in Finland, the population of which is less than many US Counties, works there. In a nation with literally thousands of school systems (one state, PA, has 500) is next to impossible.
Not to mention some of the laws and policies the US has regarding suspension and expulsion.
Over the last 50 years the US has spent $16T on poverty issues. The result? The poverty rate has stayed pretty much stagnant for the last 30 years. The only group that has seen a more or less permanent diminuation in the rate of poverty is the one of those over 65.
As a retired 30+ year high school teacher I'm going to let out a little known, dirty secret. EVERY SINGLE EDUCATION REFORM, every one, imposed, adopted and implemented over the last 30 years had one aim: bring up the education level of those, of whatever ethnic background, who were failing, dropping out and becoming general burdens on society. And not one of them has worked.
As I said much earlier in this thread, schools reflect the communities in which they're located.
So what, you give up? If one small State (the size of Finland) attempted some reforms that worked would you try and implement them nationally or would you just say it can't work? That's a very defeatist attitude. Finland changed a lot of things over that time - they went from a huge prison population with a Russian-style justice system to the low crime low imprisonment system of today. Change requires change, you have to acknowledge problems and work to change them to achieve anything, not just say that something can't work because X
So what, you give up? If one small State (the size of Finland) attempted some reforms that worked would you try and implement them nationally or would you just say it can't work? That's a very defeatist attitude. Finland changed a lot of things over that time - they went from a huge prison population with a Russian-style justice system to the low crime low imprisonment system of today. Change requires change, you have to acknowledge problems and work to change them to achieve anything, not just say that something can't work because X
You aren't paying attention. Reread what I said, really reread it and figure out what it means.
As a note, if I were King of the World, the Finnish model would be one of the last ones I'd try to emulate.
I'm not impressed. Y'know why? Back 20+ years ago, when my kids were in early elementary school, the country we were constantly being compared to was Japan. Japan, Japan, Japan! They had the Holy Grail. When the Japanese education system was looked at more closely, the cracks in their system showed up-rote learning, intense pressure, shortage of special ed services, etc. All systems have their pros and cons.
I was stationed in Okinawa from 1983 - 1985. I remember one night, around 7:30pm, I was waiting for a bus when a group of teens walked up, still wearing their school uniforms. I liked speaking with the Okinawans and found that the youth were usually more receptive so I asked why they were still in uniform. They told me that they'd just left a study group. Apparently, so much pressure is put on them to do well that after school lets out (~3pm), they head over to a friend's house or a hall and study for an additional ~4 hrs. This was 6 days a week. I'm almost positive that school was in session on Saturday's but don't quote me
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