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I’d like to see proof that, in general, all these “C” students are pulling ahead of “A” students and winding up with better paying jobs than the “A” students. Or that the majority of “A” students are somehow being “messed up by their parents socially” or are not enjoying themselves in school/life.
Social skills and academic achievement are not mutually exclusive. Plenty of “A” students excel in sales, particularly in high skill/high pay fields, like engineering/medical/pharma/financial sales, where college GPA is often a barrier to entry.
I’d like to see proof that, in general, all these “C” students are pulling ahead of “A” students and winding up with better paying jobs than the “A” students. Or that the majority of “A” students are somehow being “messed up by their parents socially” or are not enjoying themselves in school/life.
Social skills and academic achievement are not mutually exclusive. Plenty of “A” students excel in sales, particularly in high skill/high pay fields, like engineering/medical/pharma/financial sales, where college GPA is often a barrier to entry.
That sounds like a great project for you!
All I have is 35 years of anecdotal evidence.
(Btw, those industries are really missing out on those people who learn quickly but have neither the time nor the inclination to be indebted for $100K in order to sell those products and services... but within a few weeks, could easily understand and sell them. For some people, skill comes easily, no matter how angry those without that ability feel. It has angered countless co-workers that I can outsell them, retain or regain clients they've lost, and pop into any setting in any industry and feel comfortable... with a few weeks' training they spent 4-8 years in school and $100-200K in loans to get, while they earned nothing. It's all probably as frustrating for them as it is for me to not get that cushy office job with great hours even though I have experience, because I don't have a higher degree in something completely irrelevant... as frustrating for me as not being hired by a person - usually degreed, whether HR or manager or the OWNER - who doesn't know how to use a fax machine, says things like "supposably" and "they seen it before," and shows up for work 45 minutes late every day, if they show up at all. It initially angered my now-dearest friend that I learned two languages from being her friend and hearing her speak as she rudely took phone calls while we were out... and occasionally auditing a few of her classes so that I could clarify some grammar questions or work on my penmanship for their characters, in context. Most of my friends are teachers and professors. But, that's life. All I can do is make decisions based on what I know and experience. That includes using these experiences to parent our children.)
eta: My 14-yo daughter saved our district about $10M because she pointed out, in a board meeting she begged me to bring her to, that plans submitted by the winning bidder of a school-renovation job were impossible and would ABSOLUTELY require double the materials, time, and 6 times the labor costs to achieve it. MY experience in that industry backed up her claim... they looked into it and found that the bid was so low because the owner/"engineer" they'd almost hired was full of it. He's now being investigated by the state. All jobs are frozen. She used to be a C-D student. She has excelled, on her own, in this. (She has ZERO common sense. If I ask her to wash dishes, I'll have to rewash them. I wouldn't trust her to cross a busy street alone. I will be supervising next week, when she babysits her new cousin for the first time. Her room is spotless. She drinks half a pot of coffee every morning, which started in 5th grade as a "let's see if this helps" before the school demanded she be put on meds for ADD. She was just tired in the morning, no matter how early she went to bed. She is thin and tall and gorgeous and geeky as hell. She's the founder of the school D&D club. She is, at this very moment, sketching out another illustration for her anime comic... which I HATE because it's freakishly dark and I don't like sad/depressing things.) But, she also loves SIMS. She has full cities she's built in it. She loves Minecraft. She can code. She loves her great-grandfather, an architect with the most boring - but stable and efficient - designs in the whole world. I HATE his buildings because they're so ugly, imo. She reads through my work papers like it's her job and asks questions. Several of my brothers and brothers-in-law are roofers, contractors, and mechanics. Our friends are varied. We help when needed. In anything, from car repair to taxes to catering weddings when theirs has backed out. So when she saw that her ART program would be cut - a pre-requisite for an architecture class - she asked why. And dug into their plans, their history, their bids, and comps. And called BS. It worked.
She didn't need a degree for that... only a life experience - albeit short so far - that KNEW something wasn't right and had the confidence to ask for help when it was needed. She'd not have had time to learn all of this *in context*, in order to understand, if our lives were any more structured and demanding. My parents would have never allowed art to be a hobby. We weren't allowed to even watch regular TV or movies. "Video games turn your mind to mush! The internet has porn! If you want to date that not-our-religion boy from chess club, he and you will have to meet with Father S. to make sure he has pure intentions!" She has had none of that. No religion to practice and no expectation to conform to beyond passing and being open and helpful to people whose paths cross our own, if we can help or be useful. Not being able to take that prerequisite was her most basic incentive... it wasn't even her favorite thing, just an enjoyable stepping stone to a skill she wants to acquire. And that contractor was in the way.
That's why I'm a big fan of "passing is acceptable"... based on anecdotal evidence. I have exactly ZERO desire to prove anything. If YOU want to see it, that can be YOUR job. I'll just go on, with my perfect grades (that happened 15-30 years ago) and personal struggle to assimilate despite them, and make uncomfortable and unfamiliar and estranging decisions that benefit our children... decisions that benefit them along with everyone else. My life isn't easy but it's rewarding, since I've stopped putting all of my effort into grades. Maybe it's too late for me but it isn't too late for them. And they're whom I care about.
Where in Nebraska? DH is from Omaha. I like to say he's a city boy from Nebraska.
True. That's why I asked if he bought a house! Seriously, you can have a car loan and credit card debt too. Or maybe the kid is exaggerating.
You can have six figures plus in student loan debt. There are plenty of sources of private $$ for college if you choose to go that route. The $57K limit is only for the government loans; on top of that, you can pile on the private student loan debt.
You can have six figures plus in student loan debt. There are plenty of sources of private $$ for college if you choose to go that route. The $57K limit is only for the government loans; on top of that, you can pile on the private student loan debt.
I was suggesting the student had some other type of debt than the traditional "student loans". I take these stories of $200K, etc in "student loans" with a grain of salt.
Here is a good article about costs and loans at the U of Pennsylvania: https://www.thedp.com/article/2016/0...-penn-analysis
It's a very long article and I don't think picking three sentences would do it justice, but here's a quote: "But despite a "No Loan" policy, 32 percent of Penn’s 2015 graduates took out a student loan to finance their education, according to Student Registration and Financial Services reports. Those that did graduated with an average debt of $18,900 in federal and nonfederal student loans. . . Under the policy, Penn provides students with a financial aid award that includes grants and a work-study job, but no loans. Any loans taken out by students are considered separate from the financial aid package."
Well right, people take out "student loans" to cover their living expenses and who knows what else while they are in school. I misunderstood and thought you were saying that it was impossible to have student loans over $57K. Post-grad professionals are, of course, more likely to have six-figure loans. https://www.studentloanplanner.com/t...-is-exploding/ According to this article, orthodontists have over $600K on average!! No wonder my daughter's braces were so expensive!
My oldest starts HS next year. He's very bright, not off the charts or anything, but capable of high achievement. I'll see what I think as he gets into things. He chose to sign up for honors classes and is on a higher math track, plus he goes to a private school that doesn't believe in the current everyone can get an A mindset. I'll see how hard he's working, what the expectations are, and adjust mine to what I believe is realistic. Always aim for an A, but I won't always EXPECT it. I expect him to choose tougher classes, push himself, and learn to balance academics with extracurriculars and being a kid. I expect him to not be perfect and to learn from his imperfections.
I’d like to see proof that, in general, all these “C†students are pulling ahead of “A†students and winding up with better paying jobs than the “A†students. Or that the majority of “A†students are somehow being “messed up by their parents socially†or are not enjoying themselves in school/life.
Social skills and academic achievement are not mutually exclusive. Plenty of “A†students excel in sales, particularly in high skill/high pay fields, like engineering/medical/pharma/financial sales, where college GPA is often a barrier to entry.
(Btw, those industries are really missing out on those people who learn quickly but have neither the time nor the inclination to be indebted for $100K in order to sell those products and services... but within a few weeks, could easily understand and sell them. For some people, skill comes easily, no matter how angry those without that ability feel. It has angered countless co-workers that I can outsell them, retain or regain clients they've lost, and pop into any setting in any industry and feel comfortable... with a few weeks' training they spent 4-8 years in school and $100-200K in loans to get, while they earned nothing. It's all probably as frustrating for them as it is for me to not get that cushy office job with great hours even though I have experience, because I don't have a higher degree in something completely irrelevant... as frustrating for me as not being hired by a person - usually degreed, whether HR or manager or the OWNER - who doesn't know how to use a fax machine, says things like "supposably" and "they seen it before," and shows up for work 45 minutes late every day, if they show up at all. It initially angered my now-dearest friend that I learned two languages from being her friend and hearing her speak as she rudely took phone calls while we were out... and occasionally auditing a few of her classes so that I could clarify some grammar questions or work on my penmanship for their characters, in context. Most of my friends are teachers and professors. But, that's life. All I can do is make decisions based on what I know and experience. That includes using these experiences to parent our children.)
eta: My 14-yo daughter saved our district about $10M because she pointed out, in a board meeting she begged me to bring her to, that plans submitted by the winning bidder of a school-renovation job were impossible and would ABSOLUTELY require double the materials, time, and 6 times the labor costs to achieve it. MY experience in that industry backed up her claim... they looked into it and found that the bid was so low because the owner/"engineer" they'd almost hired was full of it. He's now being investigated by the state. All jobs are frozen. She used to be a C-D student. She has excelled, on her own, in this. (She has ZERO common sense. If I ask her to wash dishes, I'll have to rewash them. I wouldn't trust her to cross a busy street alone. I will be supervising next week, when she babysits her new cousin for the first time. Her room is spotless. She drinks half a pot of coffee every morning, which started in 5th grade as a "let's see if this helps" before the school demanded she be put on meds for ADD. She was just tired in the morning, no matter how early she went to bed. She is thin and tall and gorgeous and geeky as hell. She's the founder of the school D&D club. She is, at this very moment, sketching out another illustration for her anime comic... which I HATE because it's freakishly dark and I don't like sad/depressing things.) But, she also loves SIMS. She has full cities she's built in it. She loves Minecraft. She can code. She loves her great-grandfather, an architect with the most boring - but stable and efficient - designs in the whole world. I HATE his buildings because they're so ugly, imo. She reads through my work papers like it's her job and asks questions. Several of my brothers and brothers-in-law are roofers, contractors, and mechanics. Our friends are varied. We help when needed. In anything, from car repair to taxes to catering weddings when theirs has backed out. So when she saw that her ART program would be cut - a pre-requisite for an architecture class - she asked why. And dug into their plans, their history, their bids, and comps. And called BS. It worked.
She didn't need a degree for that... only a life experience - albeit short so far - that KNEW something wasn't right and had the confidence to ask for help when it was needed. She'd not have had time to learn all of this *in context*, in order to understand, if our lives were any more structured and demanding. My parents would have never allowed art to be a hobby. We weren't allowed to even watch regular TV or movies. "Video games turn your mind to mush! The internet has porn! If you want to date that not-our-religion boy from chess club, he and you will have to meet with Father S. to make sure he has pure intentions!" She has had none of that. No religion to practice and no expectation to conform to beyond passing and being open and helpful to people whose paths cross our own, if we can help or be useful. Not being able to take that prerequisite was her most basic incentive... it wasn't even her favorite thing, just an enjoyable stepping stone to a skill she wants to acquire. And that contractor was in the way.
That's why I'm a big fan of "passing is acceptable"... based on anecdotal evidence. I have exactly ZERO desire to prove anything. If YOU want to see it, that can be YOUR job. I'll just go on, with my perfect grades (that happened 15-30 years ago) and personal struggle to assimilate despite them, and make uncomfortable and unfamiliar and estranging decisions that benefit our children... decisions that benefit them along with everyone else. My life isn't easy but it's rewarding, since I've stopped putting all of my effort into grades. Maybe it's too late for me but it isn't too late for them. And they're whom I care about.
1).Craving/drinking lots of coffee is a fairly common self-medicating maneuver for people who have ADHD.
2). You can hate on people with degrees all you'd like but you can't change the fact that at the medians those with degrees have several times the net worth of those without degrees.
This discussion is kind of a spinoff from the homework thread. There, a lot of posters were saying that they didn't think homework was necessary or they just barely did homework.
So, I'm wondering what people consider to be their goal in school and what is acceptable as far as grades are concerned.
Grades in school are often arbitrarily awarded, based on favoritism by the teachers. The grades of some targeted students are reduced, just at the whim of teachers or administrators. So it doesn't matter how much you learn or how hard you work in school, if you aren't among the favored ones, you aren't likely to get very good grades. Another way many receive top grades, is described at the end of this post.
The comprehensive achievement tests that are given by national testing companies and are independent of the schools, tell the real truth about how much each student has learned, retained and is able to apply to real-life tasks. Those test results, not classroom grades, should be used for evaluating students, qualifying them for college and scholarships and for many types of employment.
In some other countries, colleges do not give out grades during a school year, but base everything on how well the students do on their big, annual, comprehensive tests, at the year's end. Cramming bits and pieces of information into short-term memory, to pass weekly quizzes and tests and then forgetting it all soon after, does not work in this type of system. Most of those who get top grades in high school, depend on short-term, rote memory for quizzes and short tests and many of them don't do so well on long, comprehensive tests.
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No wonder my daughter's braces were so expensive!
