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If he does not learn to fit in in the world, he will have a very lonely life. I don't agree that he needs to be with children like him. I'm not sure why you think becomming part of some elitist group would be good for him. That could prove to be even more isolating.
I agree on sports and things like music being the way to go but he has 20 years of school ahead of him to get through and then a career to work at and people will likely be involved all along the way who are not like him.
The funny thing about this post is that if he truly is profoundly gifted he does not have 20 years of school ahead of him. He will be done long before that with formal education.
I have a friend who has a 4 year old son who is, obviously, profoundly gifted. He's concerned with how his son will fit in and asking for advice. I'm not sure how to advise him. From what I can see, his son isn't going to fit in so I'm posting here asking your advice.
It's been apparent since this child was about 2 that there was something unusual about him. At first they thought he was autistic becasue he fixated on the alphabet but it turns out he's, extermely, intelligent. Before he was 4 he was reading chapter books, into 500 piece puzzles, had learned all 50 states and their capitals and all the countries on the globe and their captials as well as their locations and was doing math on his fingers with some kind of finger method (It's not counting, he gets his answers too quickly to be counting up to them) he invented himself.
His father is worried about how he'll fit in in school. He wants to normalize him by taking away books and educational toys and forcing hm to be with other kids his age. What would you do if this were your child to help him be more normal? I agree that socialization will be his big issue. This little guy would much rather read a book or do a puzzle than play with another child. Nothing is going to stop him academically.
hmmm...has your friend considered re-gifting? It makes sense in these economic times.
The funny thing about this post is that if he truly is profoundly gifted he does not have 20 years of school ahead of him. He will be done long before that with formal education.
Not necessarily true. Grade skipping is only one way of dealing with giftedness.
But if the boy doesn't fit in, it's not because of the books and puzzles he plays with. It's because his mind works differently than most other kids. Just like the athlete's body works differently. Substituting different toys isn't going to make him fit in because he is who he is.
Having said that, in our community at least one private counselor offers social skills classes for autistic/asperger's kids. Although the boy you're talking about doesn't carry that diagnosis, classes like that may help him with his social skills.
That's what I'm thinking. I think he'll stand out just because of who he is. Although, getting him into social situations may help. You never know.
No. I understood your point. I think it's idiotic.
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
You might as well not have a gift you choose not to use. It's that simple.
The gift means nothing if you don't use it.
I think the problem here is terminology. "Gifted" implies something extra, a toy, like a really cool Lego set or cordless drill. What we have here, with profoundly gifted children, is completely different wiring. A profoundly gifted child is knd of like sticking a transformer meant to handle the power for Disney World in a tract house. Whether or not you throw the switch (and risk blowing things up if you don't know what you're doing), whether you use it or not the transformer's power is still there. And you can only hope that when you try to channel it into running a $10 toaster (the metaphorical equivalent of that second grade classroom you want the child to "fit into"), you'd better hope the only thing that blows is the toaster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
It's not up to someone else to find it for you and coax it out of you.
Well, that depends. Coax it out? Possibly not. Identify and accommodate? In states in which gifted ed is cosidered part of SpEd, it most certainly is "up to someone else". That's that pesky "free and APPROPRIATE education", bay-bee.
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
As I've said, repeatedly, look through history and you will find over and over again situations where the gifted have risen above their births and their educations to succeed. That others who had the same gifts, if they do exist, chose not to is their choice.
Oh, the gifted will, eventually, use their gifts....one way or another, those talents show. It is incumbent upon us, as the adults in the equation, to teach them to (as the saying goes) "use their talents for good and not evil". Given your rantings about needing to serve society's best interests (well, in between the rantings about how your best interests are paramount, anyway), one would think it would be preferable to nurture the more able, rather than to throw them to the wolves to raise.
History, in the context in which you use it, is a notoriously bad witness. Given the commonly accepted theory that those who are at least highly gifted occur approximately once every thousand individuals, there should be a whole lot more standouts just in US history, let alone Western Civ or World History. Clearly, over the last several centuries, there are a whole lot of people either not performing, or not making the books.
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
I'm living proof that effort matters more than IQ. I'm not gifted but I have achieved more than many people I know who, technically, are gifted. I think we're making too much of "gifts" when what really matters is the effort a person is willing to put in to use what they have no matter how limited.
My, we do think highly of ourselves, don't we?
Once again, one anecdote cannot prove anything. It can disprove a blanket statement (e.g. "all engineers are purple") but it cannot prove anything.
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
No, low achieving "gifted" students who don't care to put in effort and don't want to learn don't really hit my radar. I have too many students who want to learn to get to first. Please keep in mind they're in the 11th grade by the time they hit my class. If they're not putting in effort by now, there's not much I'm going to be able to do to change that. They've already made the decision to throw away their gifts. Once it's thrown out, you might as well have never had it in the first place. It's kind of useless to have intelligence you don't use but the choice to use it or not belongs to the person who has it, not me. If it were up to me, everyone would work as hard as the above mentioned young man to achieve beyond their raw potential. If my gifted dd worked like he does, she'd have graduated from high school by now. She doesn't have to, so she doesn't and that is her choice. It's her life. One of the reasons I've avoided testing her is to avoid pinning an expectation on her. I want the choice to be, entirely, hers as it should be.
The plural of anecdote is not data. C'mon, you can remember that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
It's best to remember that teachers can only open the door. It's up to the student to decide whether or not to walk through it. If a "gifted" child chooses not to, that is their choice. Personally, I think we make too much of things like IQ when it's effort that really matters.
Well, it makes a great excuse. I'm of the opinion that education is a team approach, not something best presented as "here it is, take it or leave it, I could care less". I'm unsurprised that your students fail to find your classes fascinating, and that parents are reluctant to get involved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
I think G&T programs should be open to all students willing to put in the effort to succeed in them. They can make more difference for the high average child than they can for a gifted child.
Here's where I will marginally agree with you-- only because, in this county, gifted classes are the ones being taught in anything approaching an engaging and challenging manner. Were all children offered the options reserved for those with IEPs or EPs, we might actually have a graduation rate somewhere above 70%.
If he does not learn to fit in in the world, he will have a very lonely life. I don't agree that he needs to be with children like him. I'm not sure why you think becomming part of some elitist group would be good for him. That could prove to be even more isolating.
I agree on sports and things like music being the way to go but he has 20 years of school ahead of him to get through and then a career to work at and people will likely be involved all along the way who are not like him.
Since I was completely ignored before, I will say it again. You don't have to fit in to be happy. Plenty of people don't fit in. They learn to cope with it. Well, most people learn to cope with it. Don't try to change him just to fit in with kids in school. He's different, and that's OK. Not everyone in this world is the same.
Well, so far, the experts say there are no issues and they have declared he is profoundly gifted. I'm not sure why I keep seeing posts like this one. I'm not the one declaring the child profoundly gifted. The doctors are. He's been evaluated for autism several times. The evaluations come back the same. They say is is profoundly gifted and is not autistic.
Check for Asperger's. It is a high-function autism.
I have a relative diagnosed with Aspergers. He is excessively bright but social interaction was a problem. He was fine with adults, but had great difficulty with kids his own age. He has since graduated from college with honors and is doing well in life. He's definitely quirky - and I absolutely love him.
The problem is, PSR, Ivory has repeatedly expressed her beliefs on CD's education thread that the central purpose of school is to minimize difference and create similarity in order to benefit society.
Others have pointed out many objections, most of which you can imagine. I find it to be a genuine moment of potential growth if Ivory can understand, through compassion with her friend's child, that perhaps her assumptions were wrong, or her ideology about the purpose of school may be a Procrustean bed -- ultimately, a torture device for all but the most normal of the normal.
Um, no I have not. Try reading my posts. I have said that the purpose of schools is to educate the public. The objective is to educate kids in the way that will best serve society. Please don't twist what I said. It has ntohing to do with creating similarity and minimizing difference. It has to do with doing that which will benefit society the most. So, it is not about maximizing individuals. If that's what you want, the public system is not for you.
It's not a matter of minimizing difference and making everyone the same. It's a matter of spending limited resources where they will do the most good for society as a whole. That happens to be having a system that serves most kids well so you are aiming for the middle. The second objective becomes bringing up the bottom because you can make the most impact on society there. If your choice is between teaching 10 children who can't read to read or having special classes for the gifted, the decision is a no brainer. Teaching kids to read means they might be able to get jobs and be productive members of society. If the gifted don't get a special class, there's no real harm done. They already have exceeded the intent of the public school.
In short, if we want schools that maximize everyone, we'll have to spend a lot more money than we do now. We'd need multiple tracks and people to work with kids to get them moving between tracks. I don't think we'll ever spend that kind of resources on education.
Since I was completely ignored before, I will say it again. You don't have to fit in to be happy. Plenty of people don't fit in. They learn to cope with it. Well, most people learn to cope with it. Don't try to change him just to fit in with kids in school. He's different, and that's OK. Not everyone in this world is the same.
I've never said we're all the same. If we were, there'd be no need for this thread, now would there?
Whether or not this little boy will be fine without fitting is is yet to be seen but now is the time to start doing something about it if it is to be changed. If he should decide later that he wants to live the life of a hermit that is his choice but to be forced into that life because his parents failed to do anything to help him fit in would be a trajedy.
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Regifting what? His sons books and educational toys????
