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And on that same note, think of all of the things that you may have missed out on because you were stuck at school.
Contrary to popular belief, homeschooling/unschooling does not mean staying at home all of the time. Unschooled or home schooled kids have opportunities to socialize and learn lessons from their relationships with others just as kids in school have opportunities to socialize. The difference is where and with whom they spend that time. School kids spend 6+ hours a day in classrooms made up of 20-30 other kids, all in the same age group and one (maybe 2) adults. Home schooled children may spend their time outdoors, at parks, at the library, museums, the zoo, etc. and spend that time with people of various ages. There are tons of home school and unschooling groups available so children really do have the opportunity to socialize and spend time with other children during the day in addition to many adults. They have the same opportunities to fall in love but are a lot less likely to experience the kind of bullying and cliquiness that happens in school. IMO that is a good thing.
Before I had my daughter I had a lot of preconceived notions about homeschooling. It's something that I never imagined that I would do with my child. When I first heard about unschooling I couldn't even really wrap my brain around the concept. After considering our options, doing some reading and seeing how homeschooling and unschooling work in real life, I am leaning very strongly in that direction. So far I'm on board with homeschooling and still reading up on and pondering unschooling. One of the biggest (of many) reasons why I want to do this is because I can see not only how it would enrich our daughter's life but our family life as well. It's exciting to think about the possibilities. I imagine that as curious, introspective and intelligent as you seem, you may find yourself considering the alternatives when and if you have children one day.
Let's say I'm open to, at the very least, of playing a more than active role in my son or daughter's education, and maybe incorporating some USing techniques. And I thank you for responding.
I just have a few points that I don't think will be reconciled in the near term (not your fault, just of the general theory of USing):
It all seems too ephemeral to me. Very leap of faith-ish. But I don't think it has to be this way.
I've seen (on the internet, and with links to books, that I may end up reading later on) a majority of success stories (which is nice) but virtually no negatives, so that worries me.
In addition, I've also seen no real hard statistics on anything other than the percentage of unschoolers/homeschoolers. (The 'anarchistic' free attitude seems to promote the noninclusion of such statistics)
The anti-establishment thinking therein can easily be as dogmatic as those in the establishment.
Philosophically I think the quality of unschooling requires a more than docile effort on the part of the parents. (Most unschooling parents I'm seeing are more hands ON than hands off.) And that is a matter of time and resources which is unequally distributed in the larger realm of society.
"Mom, dad I'd like to learn more about Egypt." Dad, "Well let's go to Egypt."
Rather than: "Mom, dad, I'd like to learn more about Egypt." Dad, "There's a library down the street. I'll take you; let's go read some more books."
Rather than: "Dad, I'd like to learn more about Egypt." Dad, "Go away, I'm working two jobs, because mom left."
Rather than: "Mom, dad, I'd like to learn more about Egypt." Dad, "Don't they teach that in school?"
Can or do USers reconcile those differences? What if reading that extra book, or taking that extra trip tips the scale in what a child wants to be an archeologist? How is that different from someone who goes to public school but can take the trip to Egypt? How do we determine what we can provide and to what level?
And from the previous points, inherently (call it liberal guilt and/or classism) but I think the ultimate end of unschooling is either elitist and/or would cause a greater rift in the 'haves' and the 'have-nots.' In short, I would feel selfish doing it.
And in a complete system of unschoolers, who would be the trash men/women? Would society look totally different than it does today if everyone did what they wanted? Would we just be tribes of intellectuals?
I know the last parts sound ridiculous but these are thoughts I can't avoid. And I think that although I appear to uphold the 'establishment' I find my thoughts to be quite rational yet still open minded. And ironically (again beating a dead horse now, I know) if I can entertain thoughts like these and I went to public school (especially if one goes to college anyway) then what is the point of unschooling other than a different way to reach the same end?
My 'goals' for society are the same as what I would like for my children. That they are educated, that they enjoy life, don't take things at face value; are critical of things they need to be critical of and ultimately are happy. I think those things can easily be reached without USing. And although flawed, I don't buy school as this horrible thing. As shown, that (most US kids that I've seen so far) eventually go to college.
I will keep searching and read more about unschooling, but ultimately for my own interest. I think what unschooling is showing me what the implications of 'freedom' actually are; that parents are trading the overt lack of freedom (public school) for a version of their own, regardless if they are explicit about it or not (or if they even know themselves, their impositions). I really appreciate your and everone's experience and opinions on the subject.
In this instance I feel like the parents are just using it as a means of avoidance of teaching their kids any form of rules/structure. You're basically relying on your own kids to be disciplined and instruct themselves at a level sufficient to function in the real world.
Every now and then, you're going to get a kid who can do this reasonably well, who's parents will invade forums like these and tell us all about how wonderful unschooling is and what great parents they are, while denouncing public school and calling us all fascists who just dont understand. But these kids are much more the exception than the norm....how many kids do you know who could legitimately take charge of their own education in that respect? By all accounts, I was a model student growing up (until slacking off in high school), but if someone told me I could stay home and take charge of my own education, I wouldve been on cloud nine and nintendo-ing it up all day. It's great to afford kids some degree of freedom to learn by experience, and I think they should be, but in the end they do benefit tremendously from having that structure and being well-grounded in basic skills. While it's a nice idea, nice ideas arent always compatable with reality.
The other thing is that being aware that there is structure in the working world is different from being able to thrive in it. I am aware that being a professional athlete takes a lot of endurance, but I can't just walk onto a soccer field and expect to be able to play at their level just because I understand the rules and expectations.
Same goes for desk jobs. My office hires people with engineering degrees not because you need any kind of engineering skillset, but because if you graduate engineering with a high GPA, it's pretty obvious you can buckle down and meet difficult metrics and deadlines. They want people that have proven they can handle it, because in the past the turnover was too high as people burned out and went into other fields.
If your child understands that the working world has deadlines and structure, that does not prepare them for actually living a life that has deadlines and structure. The only way to prepare for that is by experiencing it (and imo, it's a much better idea to experience it in a safe place like school, as opposed to an office where you're risking getting fired).
That's not my real world! I'm a working, productive adult, and I've chosen to NOT work where a boss would demand something on her desk in 2 hours. Lots and lots of people do not work in jobs like that.
IF my unschooling son *chose* to work in a job like that, he would understand the requirements of the job. There's not a "real world" and an "unschooling" world! They LIVE *in* the real world, every day of their lives. No transition necessary, they're already there. They know that rules and deadlines exist. And they know they'd have full choice of whether to enter a place where those were necessary.
Hey, me too! My real world does not at all resemble the "typical" 8-5 work day where you punch a clock and have an hour commute home. We've moved across the country to allow my DH to also do what he wants and get paid for it.
As to your second bolded, I find that many people just don't get it. The vast majority of us have had the mantra, "school prepares you for the real world" drilled into our heads for 12-16 years, and it's very hard to break out of that mold.
Let's say I'm open to, at the very least, of playing a more than active role in my son or daughter's education, and maybe incorporating some USing techniques. And I thank you for responding.
I just have a few points that I don't think will be reconciled in the near term (not your fault, just of the general theory of USing):
It all seems too ephemeral to me. Very leap of faith-ish. But I don't think it has to be this way.
I've seen (on the internet, and with links to books, that I may end up reading later on) a majority of success stories (which is nice) but virtually no negatives, so that worries me.
In addition, I've also seen no real hard statistics on anything other than the percentage of unschoolers/homeschoolers. (The 'anarchistic' free attitude seems to promote the noninclusion of such statistics)
The anti-establishment thinking therein can easily be as dogmatic as those in the establishment.
Philosophically I think the quality of unschooling requires a more than docile effort on the part of the parents. (Most unschooling parents I'm seeing are more hands ON than hands off.) And that is a matter of time and resources which is unequally distributed in the larger realm of society.
"Mom, dad I'd like to learn more about Egypt." Dad, "Well let's go to Egypt."
This is probably the best way to learn about Egypt, hands down! Unfortunately, most of us can't afford to do that. As "relaxed homeschoolers," we try hard to let the kids follow their interests and learn as much first-hand information as possible. For example, we host exchange students to awaken a desire in the kids to learn about other cultures. We visited one of our students in Germany, and while we were there, we visited several castles and went into an underground volcano (my son was fascinated by volcanoes). When DS went through a pirate phase, we had planned to visit the pirate museum on Key West, but moved out of Florida before we could go. We did do things like watch Pirates of the Caribbean, read adult books on pirates (as opposed to picture books or books written for children specifically), watched documentaries on the history channel, etc. We recently did some work on King Tut and Egyptian mummies after they saw a documentary series on unwrapping King Tut. Unfortunately, we don't have the resources to visit Egypt, but both kids have that on their list of places that they'd like to visit... because we've traveled overseas before, they know that it's a possibility in the future.
Rather than: "Mom, dad, I'd like to learn more about Egypt." Dad, "There's a library down the street. I'll take you; let's go read some more books."
Sometimes this is the best we as parents can do... books and documentaries on television/DVD. Usually you can manage some type of field trip, though.
Rather than: "Dad, I'd like to learn more about Egypt." Dad, "Go away, I'm working two jobs, because mom left."
Rather than: "Mom, dad, I'd like to learn more about Egypt." Dad, "Don't they teach that in school?"
Can or do USers reconcile those differences? What if reading that extra book, or taking that extra trip tips the scale in what a child wants to be an archeologist? How is that different from someone who goes to public school but can take the trip to Egypt? How do we determine what we can provide and to what level?
That is something that every family has to take into consideration. Who says that someone going to public school is more likely to be able to swing a trip to Egypt over someone who is homeschooling? It would be great to have unlimited finances, but the reality is that most of us do not live that way, unfortunately!
And from the previous points, inherently (call it liberal guilt and/or classism) but I think the ultimate end of unschooling is either elitist and/or would cause a greater rift in the 'haves' and the 'have-nots.' In short, I would feel selfish doing it.
And in a complete system of unschoolers, who would be the trash men/women? Would society look totally different than it does today if everyone did what they wanted? Would we just be tribes of intellectuals?
I can't justify sending my kids to school so that I would not feel guilty about having kids that are less mediocre or more intellectual than others, or because I want to supply my community with laborers. Maybe if everyone unschooled, there would be no need for trash men/women, or maybe some people WANT to be trash men/women.
I know the last parts sound ridiculous but these are thoughts I can't avoid. And I think that although I appear to uphold the 'establishment' I find my thoughts to be quite rational yet still open minded. And ironically (again beating a dead horse now, I know) if I can entertain thoughts like these and I went to public school (especially if one goes to college anyway) then what is the point of unschooling other than a different way to reach the same end?
Your questions do not sound ridiculous; they sound like they come from someone who has been thinking about this, outside the box! I guess the difference, if unschooling has the same end as public schooling, is that all of those years are not wasted in school, if you do see school as a waste of time. And if you haven't noticed, MOST people do not reasonably entertain these thoughts that you are expressing. They mostly say, over and over again, "School is preparation for the real world. You can not be prepared for the real world without school." Home/unschoolers don't have such delusions.
My 'goals' for society are the same as what I would like for my children. That they are educated, that they enjoy life, don't take things at face value; are critical of things they need to be critical of and ultimately are happy. I think those things can easily be reached without USing. And although flawed, I don't buy school as this horrible thing. As shown, that (most US kids that I've seen so far) eventually go to college.
I will keep searching and read more about unschooling, but ultimately for my own interest. I think what unschooling is showing me what the implications of 'freedom' actually are; that parents are trading the overt lack of freedom (public school) for a version of their own, regardless if they are explicit about it or not (or if they even know themselves, their impositions). I really appreciate your and everone's experience and opinions on the subject.
I am enjoying this conversation with you! It's nice to talk to someone with an open mind about alternate possibilities for education, even if they don't have the desire to do it themselves. An open and tolerant mind is a wonderful thing.
Let's say I'm open to, at the very least, of playing a more than active role in my son or daughter's education, and maybe incorporating some USing techniques. And I thank you for responding.
I think every parent should HS or US as much as they want--having them in school doesn't absolve them of this great responsibility, so kudos to you for being willing to do that--it's a great adventure and a lot more fun than it sounds. Contrary to belief about US, you do get to choose or suggest some of what you study, but don't force feed it. If you play a card game w/ them, idly bring up game theory and statistics and see if an interest takes hold. Same thing if they're into ballgames.
I just have a few points that I don't think will be reconciled in the near term (not your fault, just of the general theory of USing):
It all seems too ephemeral to me. Very leap of faith-ish. But I don't think it has to be this way. Let's put it this way--if you value education and you pursue it yourself, your kids most likely will too. If you don't, they won't either.
I've seen (on the internet, and with links to books, that I may end up reading later on) a majority of success stories (which is nice) but virtually no negatives, so that worries me. I can name several stories of HS or US that didn't work out--it usually had something to do with parents who got mad at the school system for some reason, so they yanked their kids out of school and bought a couple of workbooks and found that getting the kids to do the WS was like pulling teeth, so they quit after a week and let Jr. watch TV and play video games b/c it kept the kids out of their hair. A year of two later they came dragging back and put them back in school and the kids was behind a grade or two b/c they hadn't read a single book or written anything. I have talked to several families about the possibility of HS and could tell w/in 5 minutes which kind they were. The school used to have them call me, b/c they knew I was being responsible with it.
In addition, I've also seen no real hard statistics on anything other than the percentage of unschoolers/homeschoolers. (The 'anarchistic' free attitude seems to promote the noninclusion of such statistics) As stated before, it's really hard to draw a line--it's a continuum, with some completely hands-off and some with complete curriculums. That's why this topic seems to be getting off from US to HS--b/c it's hard to tell the difference at times. I pushed math only b/c it's a subject that builds from one topic to another and has to be taken in sequence and I didn't want them to get to HS and be angry that they had to catch up, but I've read some stuff recently that makes me wonder if the sequential thing was as important as I believed.
The anti-establishment thinking therein can easily be as dogmatic as those in the establishment. I never thought of myself as anti-establishment--more as following a very fascinating hobby. Sometimes I was right in there with them and learning what they were, but most of the time they were reading their own books. I remember once when some kids came over after school and had a history outline for a test they were getting ready to take and they were asking my girls questions (Did a mom put them up to that? I wondered.) My girls knew all the answers though I couldn't recall them ever studying that material--it was American History, which my dd had no interest in and we always studied ancient history of the world, like Rome and Ancient Egypt.
Philosophically I think the quality of unschooling requires a more than docile effort on the part of the parents. (Most unschooling parents I'm seeing are more hands ON than hands off.) And that is a matter of time and resources which is unequally distributed in the larger realm of society. The theory of US is not "hands-off" so much as it is letting them set the pace for learning, letting them choose what to learn, and supplying them with the opportunities. It helps if you go to the library a lot. I did limit TV, I have limited snacks and we serve no soda, and I greatly discouraged junk reading and steered them towards the classics. I read those myself so am not being a hypocrite.
"Mom, dad I'd like to learn more about Egypt." Dad, "Well let's go to Egypt."
We did that. Our whole family took a RTW trip, which we wouldn't have been able to do if we'd had to keep the girls in school. Since we already had HS, it wasn't a stress--it came naturally. Some of the things they learned w/o force feeding any of it: the life cycle of a platypus, what it's like to see turtles lay their eggs on a beach in Oz at night, the sheer power of a tiger when you have your hand laying on its back, how unpopular Americans have gotten around the world and some of the reasons why, that a pyramid smells strongly of ammonia after a jackel has gotten in and peed in it, how religious art has developed over the centuries and some of the symbolism, and so much more. It cost less than you would think and older DD kept a journal of the whole trip and younger DD kept the budget for the most part. We let go of math for a year and they still went into public with their class on all subjects.
Rather than: "Mom, dad, I'd like to learn more about Egypt." Dad, "There's a library down the street. I'll take you; let's go read some more books." If you're not willing to do at least that, you have no business HS or US, unless they're teens and can get there on their own.
Rather than: "Dad, I'd like to learn more about Egypt." Dad, "Go away, I'm working two jobs, because mom left." See above--put them in school unless they're teens and responsible. Possibly you could hire a tutor to check in to from time to time.
Rather than: "Mom, dad, I'd like to learn more about Egypt." Dad, "Don't they teach that in school?" Usually not or not enough for some hungry little minds.
Can or do USers reconcile those differences? What if reading that extra book, or taking that extra trip tips the scale in what a child wants to be an archeologist? How is that different from someone who goes to public school but can take the trip to Egypt? How do we determine what we can provide and to what level?
That is completely individual, like all people. My daughter decided that she didn't want to be an Egyptologist after all, which was fine since that wasn't the point of taking her to Egypt anyway. Now she is going to major in international relations. She had no problem meeting deadlines when she got back into school, and actually was more disciplined than the kids who had always been in school. She knew she was there by choice, which I believe is extremely important for kids to know. Otherwise they rebel against authority--if not overtly, then certainly covertly.
And from the previous points, inherently (call it liberal guilt and/or classism) but I think the ultimate end of unschooling is either elitist and/or would cause a greater rift in the 'haves' and the 'have-nots.' In short, I would feel selfish doing it. If you take your reasoning to the extreme, then you should put your kids in an inner city school. I don't know many people who would be willing to do that by choice. It might be a good thing if more people were willing to do that though, b/c then they might actually lobby for the changes that would need to be made, but you can do that anyway--better yet, make it a project to do with your kids--have them write the letters and the grants. Work with them to make social change--choose a cause. We had started to do that before they went back into school, and some of the feeling still remains. We did some V work on our trip too. Now they're in a vry good suburban public school and I work in a rough school, so I feel some sense of giving back.
And in a complete system of unschoolers, who would be the trash men/women? Would society look totally different than it does today if everyone did what they wanted? Would we just be tribes of intellectuals? That is one that no one can answer, but I can say this--I don't think that US and HS are for everyone. I would never say that, b/c I have seen some monumental failures (see above) and some family dynamics are too dysfunctional for me to think it would be a good idea. One thing our society does need though are some divergent thinkers--we are on a wrong track and need some creative ideas to get back to a more healthy, uh, well, lifestyle, for want of a better word. I don't even need to list the issues--you're all aware of them, but what do we do about any of it really, on a day to day basis?
I know the last parts sound ridiculous but these are thoughts I can't avoid.
No they don't--you're just thinking thru this and that's what we're all here for. And I think that although I appear to uphold the 'establishment' I find my thoughts to be quite rational yet still open minded. And ironically (again beating a dead horse now, I know) if I can entertain thoughts like these and I went to public school (especially if one goes to college anyway) then what is the point of unschooling other than a different way to reach the same end?
These are all good questions, which is why we're taking the time with them--and b/c they're questions that many people have. I also went to PS--we didn't all get "brainwashed." There is nothing wrong with establishment, per se. Some of us just have our own ideas about how things ought to be done and we do it. That doesn't mean that we're completely outside the mainstream. We're not religious nuts and I blend in with a crowd, though I'm a bit of an old hippie--not too extreme though.
My 'goals' for society are the same as what I would like for my children. That they are educated, that they enjoy life, don't take things at face value; are critical of things they need to be critical of and ultimately are happy. I think those things can easily be reached without USing. And although flawed, I don't buy school as this horrible thing. As shown, that (most US kids that I've seen so far) eventually go to college. Most HS and US don't buy into school as a horrible thing and that's not why we do or did it. My girls are as happy in school as they were HS and we don't regret any of what we did. Since I work at a school, I esp don't buy that it's bad, and I actually have a better attitude about it than many of my co-workers.
I will keep searching and read more about unschooling, but ultimately for my own interest. I think what unschooling is showing me what the implications of 'freedom' actually are; that parents are trading the overt lack of freedom (public school) for a version of their own, regardless if they are explicit about it or not (or if they even know themselves, their impositions). I really appreciate your and everone's experience and opinions on the subject.
I have been hoping to respond to harhar's questions and curiosity, and I have not been able to find the time to give that the time and focus it deserves. I hope to be able to say more soon, but for now, I'll post these links, written by others.
This is very long, but it says so much - if you're curious about unschooling, I hope you'll click that link and read.
I have not taught my boys math - I know that life is math is life. And here's another one, that goes into more detail about math & natural learning. (written by a real-life PhD!)
Wait, I thought you were unschooling your kids? Do you have time for that and a full time job? That's pretty impressive.
It is, thank you! I am a single mom, to boot. It works because unschooling is real life - we never have to take time out of living to sit down and study something. They learn as part of the flow of our very real lives. I work part-time for a nonprofit from home, and I own my own business, which leads me to my next point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliTerp07
Unless you work for yourself, there are going to be deadlines and crunch times and overtime and rules--which means most professions someone would choose. I actually can't think of a single job short of working for yourself that doesn't have deadlines.
Working for myself, I possibly have MORE deadlines than some other professions. Self-set, because I want my business to be successful. Deadlines are a part of real life, not just the working world. Because I don't impose arbitrary limits and deadlines on my kids via some type of schoolwork doesn't mean they don't know what they are, or have never chosen to meet one.
It is They learn as part of the flow of our very real lives.
How can you learn calculus as a flow in your life? How can you learn the civil war battles as a part of the flow in your life? How does a 1st grader learn to read as a part of the flow of his/her life? My life and the life of my kids when they were little doesn't have any flow like that?
this is a anti home school post???? advocating for K12???
w/o saying a bunch of negative stuff about both.
i would highly advocate for voucher system.
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Unschooled or home schooled kids have opportunities to socialize and learn lessons from their relationships with others just as kids in school have opportunities to socialize. The difference is where and with whom they spend that time. School kids spend 6+ hours a day in classrooms made up of 20-30 other kids, all in the same age group and one (maybe 2) adults. Home schooled children may spend their time outdoors, at parks, at the library, museums, the zoo, etc. and spend that time with people of various ages. There are tons of home school and unschooling groups available so children really do have the opportunity to socialize and spend time with other children during the day in addition to many adults. They have the same opportunities to fall in love but are a lot less likely to experience the kind of bullying and cliquiness that happens in school. IMO that is a good thing.
We did do things like watch Pirates of the Caribbean, read adult books on pirates (as opposed to picture books or books written for children specifically), watched documentaries on the history channel, etc. We recently did some work on King Tut and Egyptian mummies after they saw a documentary series on unwrapping King Tut. Unfortunately, we don't have the resources to visit Egypt, but both kids have that on their list of places that they'd like to visit... because we've traveled overseas before, they know that it's a possibility in the future.
I guess the difference, if unschooling has the same end as public schooling, is that all of those years are not wasted in school, if you do see school as a waste of time. And if you haven't noticed, MOST people do not reasonably entertain these thoughts that you are expressing. They mostly say, over and over again, "School is preparation for the real world. You can not be prepared for the real world without school." Home/unschoolers don't have such delusions. 
There is nothing wrong with establishment, per se. Some of us just have our own ideas about how things ought to be done and we do it. That doesn't mean that we're completely outside the mainstream. We're not religious nuts and I blend in with a crowd, though I'm a bit of an old hippie--not too extreme though. 
I am a single mom, to boot. It works because unschooling is real life - we never have to take time out of living to sit down and study something. They learn as part of the flow of our very real lives. I work part-time for a nonprofit from home, and I own my own business, which leads me to my next point:
