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Thanks you for your long answer but you missed my point which I was trying avoid being blunt about.
Maybe the point needs to be more specific.
When it comes time for the un schooled student to take a job outside the home, or to go to college, and it turned out that they only have a knowledge base on what interested them, but not on what they need to get into Harvard, what happens?
I would probably have flourished with that type of schooling.
I hated school. I mean hated school and everything connected to it. Most of my grades were Bs and Cs. I only did that well because of the social pressure I felt to not be a total flunk-out. I had siblings who loved school and did well. I was looking out the window and writing poems in my head.
Until I got to college......... (Which I only attended because I didn't know what else to do and it was "expected" of me.)
Wow! I could study what I what, when I wanted. I found things and courses I was interested in. I wasn't getting graded by the state every time I turned around. If I wanted to grab my books and go outside and study under a tree I could.
I discovered Linguistics, changed my major, and graduated with honors.
I haven't wanted to wade into the rest of this, but I am highly skeptical of the claim (which seems to often be made by both unschoolers and homeschoolers) that those kids are more interested in reading than other kids. I think it comes down to family, as well to individual personalities of the kids. From a pure numbers standpoint I'm sure that the HS/US kids read more than the "average" kid in a more traditional classroom, but that's a skewed sample. In any case, I haven't seen anything in my own life or observations to suggest that this is the case. I think the "nerd" fear factor is overblown, and think that exposing children to books and to the fun of reading is something that happens in households of all types, regardless of the choice of school.
I guess my larger point is that many of the things that are embraced by those who unschool are also done by families who do go with the more conventional school route. That includes travel, reading, etc. I can see how in some cases (especially at an earlier age) unschooling could work well for some kids, but at the same time I sometimes feel that there is sometimes an assumption being made that the children who do go to school somehow switch off the learning once the school day ends.
I'm sorry that I can't this pass, even though it's off-topic, and you probably didn't mean it the way it sounds.
There are way too many American children who arrive at school unfamiliar with books and from homes where fun does not involve reading. It is to the taxpayers' benefit to try to educate these children to at least minimum standards, which I suppose is what No Child Left Behind was intended to ensure. Unfortunately, the kids who won't be able pass the graduation tests drop out with or without permission.
One reason to unschool/homeschool is to allow the children the freedom to move at their own pace. What they miss is being grounded in the fact that there are many who start out way behind and the opportunity to practice the skill of helping a struggling team member and learning compassion along the way. On the other hand, I'm sure that there are a great many independent learners who volunteer generously.
Isn't it great to be in a country where we have a choice?
I'm sorry that I can't this pass, even though it's off-topic, and you probably didn't mean it the way it sounds.
There are way too many American children who arrive at school unfamiliar with books and from homes where fun does not involve reading. It is to the taxpayers' benefit to try to educate these children to at least minimum standards, which I suppose is what No Child Left Behind was intended to ensure. Unfortunately, the kids who won't be able pass the graduation tests drop out with or without permission.
One reason to unschool/homeschool is to allow the children the freedom to move at their own pace. What they miss is being grounded in the fact that there are many who start out way behind and the opportunity to practice the skill of helping a struggling team member and learning compassion along the way. On the other hand, I'm sure that there are a great many independent learners who volunteer generously.
Isn't it great to be in a country where we have a choice?
You are absolutely correct and it is great to live in such a country. I think sometimes though that people think that when I make a choice that is different from theirs, that it somehow negates or insults their choice and that was never my intention.
I'm sorry that I can't this pass, even though it's off-topic, and you probably didn't mean it the way it sounds.
There are way too many American children who arrive at school unfamiliar with books and from homes where fun does not involve reading. It is to the taxpayers' benefit to try to educate these children to at least minimum standards, which I suppose is what No Child Left Behind was intended to ensure. Unfortunately, the kids who won't be able pass the graduation tests drop out with or without permission.
One reason to unschool/homeschool is to allow the children the freedom to move at their own pace. What they miss is being grounded in the fact that there are many who start out way behind and the opportunity to practice the skill of helping a struggling team member and learning compassion along the way. On the other hand, I'm sure that there are a great many independent learners who volunteer generously.
Isn't it great to be in a country where we have a choice?
I realize that there are families that don't expose their kids to books -- those are not the families who will be homeschooling. I meant that the families who do encourage reading fit the same general profile as the families who would homeschool: parents who believe in learning, including outside of the classroom. Parents who embrace informal learning opportunities wherever it may be, and who encourage their kids to develop passions of their own. I meant that those sorts of parents also opt to send their children to traditional classrooms.
I agree that there are problems when children are held back and can't learn at their own pace. I didn't, thank goodness, attend a school like that, and certainly hope to avoid sending my own son to such a restrictive environment. I do think it's important that parents have choices.
I often wonder, though, if so many parents who chafe at the restrictive environments found in many (but not all) schools and classrooms, were to demand change in the schools, rather than just leaving the system, if it would provide actual choice for ALL kids, not just the kids lucky enough to be born with parents who care about learning. That's not meant in any way as an attack on anyone who has chosen an alternative route, as it's also not fair to expect any parent to use their own kid as a guinea pig, or to wait it out for potentially a long time for change to come about.
I often wonder, though, if so many parents who chafe at the restrictive environments found in many (but not all) schools and classrooms, were to demand change in the schools, rather than just leaving the system, if it would provide actual choice for ALL kids, not just the kids lucky enough to be born with parents who care about learning. That's not meant in any way as an attack on anyone who has chosen an alternative route, as it's also not fair to expect any parent to use their own kid as a guinea pig, or to wait it out for potentially a long time for change to come about.
That could also be said of parents who choose to send their kids to private schools. There is a perfect example of it right here in St. Louis in a community called University City. It's a lovely little part of SL and has very pretty neighborhoods and a great downtown area. It also has a large proportion of less wealthy people--almost evenly split between rich and poor actually. The elementary schools are not bad, but by the time the kids get to middle school, almost all of the wealthy kids are in private schools and the middle and high schools very much resemble inner city schools. I subbed in one of them and was blown away by the lack of respect that was shown for the students. If all of those parents of wealthy kids put theirs back into the public schools and started pushing for change I have no doubt that things would change and fast, but who's going to go first? Also, they have low property taxes, so someone would have to make the unpopular decision to raise them.
Anyway, you bring up another very good point (and I hope I'm not being rude in hogging this board), but it is a common misconception that those who choose to HS/US must be doing so b/c they have a problem with their local school. Sometimes that's true, but I speak only for myself and some HS parents I've known when I say that we did it because we wanted to. It was a great way to spend more time with my kids, be actively involved in their learning process, and let them follow their bliss. In other words, for positive, not negative reasons. They always had a choice, though I had them make it at the beginning of the school year and what they chose had to stick for the school year. We always had an excellent relationship with our local SD and they would send people to talk to me when they were thinking of HS/US. It's just another choice that people have and I doubt that many are going to start taking their kids out of school unless the schools get really bad what with all the teacher layoffs.
That could also be said of parents who choose to send their kids to private schools. There is a perfect example of it right here in St. Louis in a community called University City. It's a lovely little part of SL and has very pretty neighborhoods and a great downtown area. It also has a large proportion of less wealthy people--almost evenly split between rich and poor actually. The elementary schools are not bad, but by the time the kids get to middle school, almost all of the wealthy kids are in private schools and the middle and high schools very much resemble inner city schools. I subbed in one of them and was blown away by the lack of respect that was shown for the students. If all of those parents of wealthy kids put theirs back into the public schools and started pushing for change I have no doubt that things would change and fast, but who's going to go first? Also, they have low property taxes, so someone would have to make the unpopular decision to raise them.
Anyway, you bring up another very good point (and I hope I'm not being rude in hogging this board), but it is a common misconception that those who choose to HS/US must be doing so b/c they have a problem with their local school. Sometimes that's true, but I speak only for myself and some HS parents I've known when I say that we did it because we wanted to. It was a great way to spend more time with my kids, be actively involved in their learning process, and let them follow their bliss. In other words, for positive, not negative reasons. They always had a choice, though I had them make it at the beginning of the school year and what they chose had to stick for the school year. We always had an excellent relationship with our local SD and they would send people to talk to me when they were thinking of HS/US. It's just another choice that people have and I doubt that many are going to start taking their kids out of school unless the schools get really bad what with all the teacher layoffs.
This is an excellent point! When we moved from Florida to Connecticut, a lot of people (non-homeschoolers) said, "Oh good, the schools are so much better up north; now you won't have to homeschool!" Um, no. We have chosen this lifestyle for our family because we wanted to, not because I didn't like the schools. I did not even look into the school system of where we were moving, because it didn't matter. There are some people, of course, who homeschool because they've had problems with their local school system, or because they move to an area with a "bad" school system, but for me and most of my homeschooling friends, it's simply a lifestyle choice and has nothing to do with the area schools.
That could also be said of parents who choose to send their kids to private schools. There is a perfect example of it right here in St. Louis in a community called University City. It's a lovely little part of SL and has very pretty neighborhoods and a great downtown area. It also has a large proportion of less wealthy people--almost evenly split between rich and poor actually. The elementary schools are not bad, but by the time the kids get to middle school, almost all of the wealthy kids are in private schools and the middle and high schools very much resemble inner city schools. I subbed in one of them and was blown away by the lack of respect that was shown for the students. If all of those parents of wealthy kids put theirs back into the public schools and started pushing for change I have no doubt that things would change and fast, but who's going to go first? Also, they have low property taxes, so someone would have to make the unpopular decision to raise them.
Anyway, you bring up another very good point (and I hope I'm not being rude in hogging this board), but it is a common misconception that those who choose to HS/US must be doing so b/c they have a problem with their local school. Sometimes that's true, but I speak only for myself and some HS parents I've known when I say that we did it because we wanted to. It was a great way to spend more time with my kids, be actively involved in their learning process, and let them follow their bliss. In other words, for positive, not negative reasons. They always had a choice, though I had them make it at the beginning of the school year and what they chose had to stick for the school year. We always had an excellent relationship with our local SD and they would send people to talk to me when they were thinking of HS/US. It's just another choice that people have and I doubt that many are going to start taking their kids out of school unless the schools get really bad what with all the teacher layoffs.
Yes, I know the same could be said of private schools. I feel the exact same thing about them. Or about communities that are highly segregated and are in effect virtually the same thing as a private school.
It's a good point that not all HS/US families do so because the local schools are bad. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I'm guessing part of the reason people often jump to the conclusion that homeschooling families often choose to do so because of their local schools is because so that's the way discussions about homeschooling (or unschooling even more so, especially with the name) tend to frame it. That goes for many of both those who do and who don't homeschool. On these homeschooling threads, for example, discussion often turns to why classroom education is so bad.
I suppose I see the parents who choose homeschooling by choice -- real choice -- as similar to parents who send their kids to private schools for religious reasons. I don't have a problem with that, either. I think families should have options and should be able to do what works best for them. But for those who DO have problems with their local schools, I wish that instead of pulling their kids out (or maybe in addition to pulling their kids out?) they'd work to address that issue.
Yes, I know the same could be said of private schools. I feel the exact same thing about them. Or about communities that are highly segregated and are in effect virtually the same thing as a private school.
It's a good point that not all HS/US families do so because the local schools are bad. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I'm guessing part of the reason people often jump to the conclusion that homeschooling families often choose to do so because of their local schools is because so that's the way discussions about homeschooling (or unschooling even more so, especially with the name) tend to frame it. That goes for many of both those who do and who don't homeschool. On these homeschooling threads, for example, discussion often turns to why classroom education is so bad.
I suppose I see the parents who choose homeschooling by choice -- real choice -- as similar to parents who send their kids to private schools for religious reasons. I don't have a problem with that, either. I think families should have options and should be able to do what works best for them. But for those who DO have problems with their local schools, I wish that instead of pulling their kids out (or maybe in addition to pulling their kids out?) they'd work to address that issue.
Many times, though, that's not feasible. If I was having a problem because there were too many kids in my child's class and there weren't enough textbooks for each child, or because I disagreed with the way they were teaching math, or because my kid could not sit for six hours per day without being medicated, for example, I would not be able to get those things changed in a reasonable amount of time. Yes, I could petition and donate fund and time, but in the end, very little would change, most likely. I don't see the benefit of keeping your kid in a no-win situation for the sake of trying to change the class/school/world. Everyone's first priority is to their own children... if it means taking their kids out of a failing system in order to educate them at home instead of working fruitlessly to change the system, then so be it. As a homeschooler with elementary-aged kids, I don't have time to volunteer at the local public school in addition to everything else that I do. The state of the public school is not on my "hot button" list... I'm more inclined to donate money to the food pantry, or donate time to my church. Others may feel differently, of course.
I often wonder, though, if so many parents who chafe at the restrictive environments found in many (but not all) schools and classrooms, were to demand change in the schools, rather than just leaving the system, if it would provide actual choice for ALL kids, not just the kids lucky enough to be born with parents who care about learning.
I believe by radically unschooling, I *am* changing the system - I am showing that you do not need draconian control on children or forced curriculum for them to learn. I am showing that it works out really well if the focus is on kids' happiness and supporting their interests, and my focus is on our relationship. More people are sitting up and taking notice - unschooling works! And works really well. So folks so inclined can study - Why does it work? What does it take to make unschooling succeed? Is there any way to replicate that in a classroom? [There's not the way we do it - a loving connected family relationship is key. But someone might take the principles of unschooling and make them available somehow to more people.]
I don't need to study it, or try to change the system - stepping completely outside the system and being there for my kids is enough.
Which reminds me of this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by harhar
Philosophically I think the quality of unschooling requires a more than docile effort on the part of the parents. (Most unschooling parents I'm seeing are more hands ON than hands off.) And that is a matter of time and resources which is unequally distributed in the larger realm of society. <snip> Can or do USers reconcile those differences? What if reading that extra book, or taking that extra trip tips the scale in what a child wants to be an archeologist? How is that different from someone who goes to public school but can take the trip to Egypt? How do we determine what we can provide and to what level? <snip>
And from the previous points, inherently (call it liberal guilt and/or classism) but I think the ultimate end of unschooling is either elitist and/or would cause a greater rift in the 'haves' and the 'have-nots.' In short, I would feel selfish doing it.
I understand that! And it's something I've (mostly) made peace with. I woke up today in a stable home, that has electricity and running water. I'm earning a stable income, and we have more than enough clothing, and a washer and dryer in my house. We have enough food here to last us this week if we eat only what we really *want* to eat, and at least a month if we absolutely needed to scrounge. I'm on this computer in my home, using a cable modem to connect to the internet.
By those choices, I'm already on the side of the haves, compared to the majority of the world. I'm going to choose what I believe is absolutely best for my kids, and support them as best as I can, without feeling one whit (most times!) of guilt about it. Holding myself down will not help those going without. By living this life we've chosen, we're showing what's possible. It's not possible for everyone, I know that, but that won't change if we don't take the first steps.
Last edited by CharlotteGal; 04-27-2010 at 03:58 PM..
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), but it is a common misconception that those who choose to HS/US must be doing so b/c they have a problem with their local school. Sometimes that's true, but I speak only for myself and some HS parents I've known when I say that we did it because we wanted to. It was a great way to spend more time with my kids, be actively involved in their learning process, and let them follow their bliss. In other words, for positive, not negative reasons. They always had a choice, though I had them make it at the beginning of the school year and what they chose had to stick for the school year. We always had an excellent relationship with our local SD and they would send people to talk to me when they were thinking of HS/US. It's just another choice that people have and I doubt that many are going to start taking their kids out of school unless the schools get really bad what with all the teacher layoffs.
