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Originally Posted by Loveshiscountry It's not about a business having rights. It's about the individual having rights. If I am a plumber who owns the business, be it just me or I have 100 people working for me, and don't want to work for a certain segment of society that's my choice. I don't loose my rights because I join a company.
You have the freedom of association (or lack of), but if you choose to run a business, you abide by the regulations and freedoms granted by the State. The business, whether you own it or are employed by it, does not have the freedom of association. That's the difference. If you don't want to work for someone, you risk termination or legal fines for discrimination. There is a difference here between a plumber and those accommodating the public, like restaurants, hotels, etc.
Government does not grant rights. Government only takes rights away. You are confusing privileges with rights. The property owner grants privileges. They ALLOW someone to come onto their property.
Accommodating the public??? It sounds like don't know what that means in this context or trying to redefine it. Public means government owned. private is everything else.
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Originally Posted by Konraden
Originally Posted by Loveshiscountry Government does not owns it's citizens and should not be able to use force to make them do work for others.
No one is forcing you to work for others. You have the freedom of association. The business does not, and these laws specifically refer to public accommodations.
Of course I am being forced. If I don't comply I'll face fines and or jail time. That's forced. Because you use the word business that means I loose my rights???? Because you say so. Well meaning, but that is your reason.
Property rights include your work. I own my work, it's my property to do whatever I please, as long as I do not infringe on the rights of others. No one has a right to my work.
I understand you have good intentions, only because I am on the same moral side as you on this. Guess what, the ones who made laws against inter racial marriages probably thought they were moral too.
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Originally Posted by Konraden
Originally Posted by Loveshiscountry My work is my property.
Explain.
The individual is property themselves. You harm the individual, (property) the law punishes you.
The work done by me is owned by me. I produce the work. You cannot force me to work for you for $4 an hour. So why do you think you can force me to work for you at any price? I set the price and conditions, and you are free to choose.
It's no different than me making a box and someone saying I'll pay you $2 for it and takes it even though I said the price is $3.
You want to allow me to set the price but not allow me to sell to whom I want? When you do that you are managing my rights, using government force, under the guise of morality. Do work for person A or you will suffer!!!
You cannot limit my property rights because you cannot limit what is not yours. What next? A cap on how much I can make?
Government does not grant rights. Government only takes rights away.
Individual persons are viewed as having "unalienable" rights. Other rights are enumerated by government. Read: Constitutional law.
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You are confusing privileges with rights. The property owner grants privileges. They ALLOW someone to come onto their property.
In terms of personal property, such as a homestead, they have limited rights to their property. A business isn't always such.
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Accommodating the public??? It sounds like don't know what that means in this context or trying to redefine it. Public means government owned. private is everything else.
Not in this context. Establishments that accomdate the public, such as hotels, bars, and restaurants, were covered under the Civil Rights act of '65 to prevent these establishments from discriminating against costumers based on race. Because these establishments are open to the public, and accommodate them as such, they open to special classification of laws.
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Of course I am being forced. If I don't comply I'll face fines and or jail time. That's forced. Because you use the word business that means I loose my rights???? Because you say so. Well meaning, but that is your reason.
No one said you lose your rights. A business, not being an individual, has no inherent rights. Everything about a business is structured by the presiding government. If a business wants to open, it has to go through the necessary legal paperwork, follow the necessary regulation, and so on and so fourth. You are not your business, and your business is not you.
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Property rights include your work. I own my work,
A business is not a created work.
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it's my property to do whatever I please, as long as I do not infringe on the rights of others. No one has a right to my work.
The law in question specifically isolated establishments of public accommodation, which generally don't have created works.
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I understand you have good intentions, only because I am on the same moral side as you on this. Guess what, the ones who made laws against inter racial marriages probably thought they were moral too.
Non-sequitur.
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The individual is property themselves. You harm the individual, (property) the law punishes you.
The work done by me is owned by me. I produce the work. You cannot force me to work for you for $4 an hour. So why do you think you can force me to work for you at any price? I set the price and conditions, and you are free to choose.
You aren't being forced to work. A business is free to set their own prices. You're attacking strawmen.
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It's no different than me making a box and someone saying I'll pay you $2 for it and takes it even though I said the price is $3.
You want to allow me to set the price but not allow me to sell to whom I want? When you do that you are managing my rights, using government force, under the guise of morality. Do work for person A or you will suffer!!!
You cannot limit my property rights because you cannot limit what is not yours. What next? A cap on how much I can make?
Red Herring. Nobody is limiting your property rights by disallowing discrimination laws. A business does not have enumerated rights outside that which a government provides. The individual does, the business does not. If you want to own and operate a business, you have to abide by the laws presented. If you don't like those laws, you change them. These laws enacted were to prevent the discrimination of black minorities in a time of great racial strife. We still have remarkably ignorant people in the world, and allowing "the free market" to handle social issues is asinine.
But how does that help anyone progress? This is all a throwback to Jim Crow. This is exactly what I'm trying to prevent.
Jim Crow is the creation of the government, not the people. It is the government that tell the people that separate but equal garage.
Most people don't look at color or white issue. It is always it is a master and a slave issue. But because of the government's Jim Crow, and suddenly, it is a color and white issue. They use a race issue for the people to go against each other for easier to control. Divide and conquer.
I'd like to see an actual quote by someone, rather than a bunch of RWs telling us that's how blacks think. If I were black, I'd want to be able to shop in any store that carried what I wanted/needed. I wouldn't want to have to go to the next town, or the next one after that, or after that, to buy basic goods.
I'm "African-American" (I don't prefer the term but my skin color is not black) and would prefer to know who the racists are so I don't have to give them my money. Or, so I can capitalize on their ignorance and open a store that caters to everyone.
As long as the law protects me from violence and government-mandated discrimination like Jim Crow, I don't care if people want to discriminate in their private business. I've studied enough history and talked to enough very old people to conclude that I would do just fine a society where people are allowed to expose their true natures, as long as they cannot hurt me.
But, I do understand the point of view of other AA's who think otherwise. I'm just more self motivated and researched to not let the "return of Jim Crow" scare me.
I'm "African-American" (I don't prefer the term but my skin color is not black) and would prefer to know who the racists are so I don't have to give them my money. Or, so I can capitalize on their ignorance and open a store that caters to everyone.
As long as the law protects me from violence and government-mandated discrimination like Jim Crow, I don't care if people want to discriminate in their private business. I've studied enough history and talked to enough very old people to conclude that I would do just fine a society where people are allowed to expose their true natures, as long as they cannot hurt me.
But, I do understand the point of view of other AA's who think otherwise. I'm just more self motivated and researched to not let the "return of Jim Crow" scare me.
Jim Crow is the creation of the government, not the people. It is the government that tell the people that separate but equal garage.
Most people don't look at color or white issue. It is always it is a master and a slave issue. But because of the government's Jim Crow, and suddenly, it is a color and white issue. They use a race issue for the people to go against each other for easier to control. Divide and conquer.
Who is the government if not "we the people"? I swear, the Libertarians have to come up with something better than that.
I don't believe the real, violent, historic Jim Crow would return. However, IF it did, I would leave the country.
To be clear, I'm not calling topic of this thread Jim Crow where business owners can only exclude people. To me, Jim Crow is government sanctioned discrimination laws and no protection from violence.
I would flourish in a society where I am protected from violence and can capitalize on the idiocy of racists.
I'm "African-American" (I don't prefer the term but my skin color is not black) and would prefer to know who the racists are so I don't have to give them my money. Or, so I can capitalize on their ignorance and open a store that caters to everyone.
As long as the law protects me from violence and government-mandated discrimination like Jim Crow, I don't care if people want to discriminate in their private business. I've studied enough history and talked to enough very old people to conclude that I would do just fine a society where people are allowed to expose their true natures, as long as they cannot hurt me.
But, I do understand the point of view of other AA's who think otherwise. I'm just more self motivated and researched to not let the "return of Jim Crow" scare me.
I hear what you're saying, and I agree, to the extent possible. But why should a business, ANY business, be able to discriminate against blacks? Why shouldn't the closest store that sells what someone wants have to do business with him/her? Even in a city, or a large suburb, sometimes "taking one's business elsewhere" entails a lot of effort.
I hear what you're saying, and I agree, to the extent possible. But why should a business, ANY business, be able to discriminate against blacks? Why shouldn't the closest store that sells what someone wants have to do business with him/her? Even in a city, or a large suburb, sometimes "taking one's business elsewhere" entails a lot of effort.
Because I believe in having a truly free society and am willing to accept the negative consequences of such as long as I'm protected from violence and government-mandated discrimination laws. If people want to individually discriminate against people who share my color, I'd love to know who they are so I can protest them and help others take all of their customers. I don't want the law to force them to serve me.
Also, I don't believe in forcing people to do something they don't want to do. These people don't hurt me by not serving me. There is a wonderful history of black-owned businesses that flourished and some were only taken down by government not protecting them from violence.
Because I believe in having a truly free society and am willing to accept the negative consequences of such as long as I'm protected from violence and government-mandated discrimination laws.
So you'd rather live somewhere where you couldn't shop for anything, couldn't receive life-saving care, etc, just to be "free"? That doesn't sound too free to me.
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