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I've actually read reports about illicit antiquities trafficking being/having been one of the main sources of revenue for Bulgarian and Greek organized crime groups , which is why I'm curious as to why I haven't read the same in the case of their Russian counterparts .
Interesting. It could mean that the state is silent on the topic. They don't want the truth known, possibly. But I haven't seen any reports or evidence of priceless Scythian artifacts turning up in personal collections or auction houses or museum collections in the West, or anywhere else outside of Russia.
Ukrainian Odessa in the 19th century? I hope you are joking .
Ethnic composition of Odessa at the end of the 19th century: 50% Russians, 30% Jews, and a few others.
yes here is a chart showing the ethnic composition of Odessa, looks like around WWII is when the city switched from majority Russian to majority Ukrainian, well actually during that transition Jews briefly became the majority. Speaking of which what exactly happened to the Jewish population in Odessa? Were they able to evacuate, or were they all rounded up by the Nazis?
You're overlooking the factor pointed out near the beginning of this digression: cultural and linguistic heritage. Speaking Russian makes me Russian if my heritage and genetic makeup are Russian. Same as with Russians in Estonia (many of which eventually opted out of Estonia, and into Russia. Same as in Ukraine; some Russians moved out rather than send their kids to Uke-speaking schools.)
I think, cultural and linguistic heritage - yes, genetic makeup - no. If you grew up in Russian culture and think in Russian, then you are Russian. The genetic makeup is secondary. For example, I can tired of writing great Russian writers (Pushkin, Dovlatov, Brodsky, etc.) who had non-Russian roots .
btw, English language does not take into account that the term "Russian" means several things in Russian language.
1. Russians is the historical name of inhabitants of the ancient Russian state. Derived from the word "Rus", which means "rowers" from the old Swedish. Numerous tribes of the Russian Plain (Slavs, Finno-Ugric, Balts and others) called "Rus" the Vikings that came along the rivers from Scandinavia to create trade routes with Byzantium and Persia. The Vikings had outposts in the north (Old Ladoga, later Veliky Novgorod) and in the south (Kyiv). The Vikings created the first state (princes of Rurikovich), uniting multiple tribes. Kyiv became the capital of this state, the Vikings assimilated and the original meaning of Rus as rowers (the prince and his team) spread first to the Kiev principality (Russians), and then to all inhabitants of the ancient state, where Slavic culture became dominant. Russians at that time were representatives of different tribes, but they were:
- Orthodox;
- speaking the Slavic language;
- living under the rule of the descendants of Rurikovich (the unified state fell apart, but faith and culture formed a single ethnic group).
2. Russians is the nation. The nation was formed mainly in the North-Eastern territory of the ancient state a few centuries later. Also, from the ancient state Belarusian and Ukrainian nations were formed. At the same time, Russian nation has a fairly wide genetic diversity (the original ethnos was a union of tribes) and quite easily assimilates new members. Ukrainian and Belarusian nations are more nationalistic, as they experience assimilation pressure from Russian nation.
3. Russians is citizens of the Russian Federation. This is a legal term, Russian is one who has a passport RF.
yes there is русский (russkiy: Ethnicity) and then there is россиянин (rossijanin: Nationality)
yes here is a chart showing the ethnic composition of Odessa, looks like around WWII is when the city switched from majority Russian to majority Ukrainian, well actually during that transition Jews briefly became the majority. Speaking of which what exactly happened to the Jewish population in Odessa? Were they able to evacuate, or were they all rounded up by the Nazis?
Bolsheviks carried out an active Ukrainization of the South-East of Ukraine. Perhaps many Russians began to call themselves Ukrainians, since the main language remained Russian.
Setting all this verbiage aside though and back on track to the general theme of Q&A about the contemporary Russian Federation in general , I'd like to humbly pose the following question :
Which is that does anyone here have any knowledge regarding the subject of historical artifacts regulation in the Russian Federation or even the general subject of historical artifacts in the RF ?
I'm asking because it's always struck me as curious that while one can find a plethora of articles relating to how the state of historical artifacts in certain Balkan countries is imperiled by factors ranging from looting to poor maintenance , the same doesn't seem to be true of the Russian Federation .
Is it because greater care is taken in Russia to prevent looting/smuggling/inadequate maintenance and what have you of historical artifacts ?
Or is the Russian Federation just as bad off as these certain Balkan countries are in this respect ?
A few years ago, laws were passed that very severely suppress the looting of historical monuments. But of course they don't use . With advent of metal detectors, a whole subculture of black diggers was formed. Large archaeological sites and mounds are mostly protected, but many areas of Central Russia are quite badly damaged. Especially the territory of battles of the 2nd World War. Also official archaeologists have a small salary, so the values do not always reach the museum. I do not know the scale of the whole problem, since I only intersected a little with black diggers, but I think that the state does not have ability/desire to restore order in this industry at the moment.
Nearly all Russians moved to Estonia only 1-2 generations ago. (Estonia was independent between the World Wars. The Russian influx was mainly Stalin's handiwork. He also deported a lot of Estonians to Central Asia after the war, as he moved masses of Russians into the Baltics.) They're new-comers. They never assimilated to the local culture or language, nor were they interested in doing so, with the exception perhaps of children of mixed Estonian-Russian marriages. They've maintained their Russian-ness the entire time.
When offered the opportunity for citizenship after 1991, they turned it down en masse, because they didn't want to fulfill the requirement to learn Estonian. Because, you know, they weren't Estonians, they were Russians.
Maybe you should ask them who they are, if you don't believe us.
Yes, you can clearly see the major shift of the ethnic composition of Narva in Estonia. And in 2020 48.5% were Estonian citizens and 36.0% were Russian citizens plus another 13.6% were stateless. Considering that a clear majority of the city is of Russian ethnic background, it does seem like the younger generation is assimilating to Estonia, if half of the city are citizens of Estonia? But yes I don't think Estonians well ever consider them true Estonians, at least not for another generation or two.
I think, cultural and linguistic heritage - yes, genetic makeup - no. If you grew up in Russian culture and think in Russian, then you are Russian. The genetic makeup is secondary. For example, I can tired of writing great Russian writers (Pushkin, Dovlatov, Brodsky, etc.) who had non-Russian roots .
Right. Genetic makeup alone doesn't determine anything but a lineage. I was listing those factors as a total package.
So, are you saying that Russians view Jews as being Russian, because they were raised speaking Russian, and assimilated to Russian culture?
Yes, you can clearly see the major shift of the ethnic composition of Narva in Estonia. And in 2020 48.5% were Estonian citizens and 36.0% were Russian citizens plus another 13.6% were stateless. Considering that a clear majority of the city is of Russian ethnic background, it does seem like the younger generation is assimilating to Estonia, if half of the city are citizens of Estonia? But yes I don't think Estonians well ever consider them true Estonians, at least not for another generation or two.
Wow, that's a very dramatic chart. You can see there was massive population replacement between the 1940's and the 70's. That type of population transfer is now illegal according to international law. It's considered to be a form of genocide. And notice, that it seems, that not many Estonians returned from Central Asia, not enough to make a difference, after they were permitted to repatriate. Probably the figures are similar for Latvia and Lithuania? Would you be able to find those and post links?
A few years ago, laws were passed that very severely suppress the looting of historical monuments. But of course they don't use . With advent of metal detectors, a whole subculture of black diggers was formed. Large archaeological sites and mounds are mostly protected, but many areas of Central Russia are quite badly damaged. Especially the territory of battles of the 2nd World War. Also official archaeologists have a small salary, so the values do not always reach the museum. I do not know the scale of the whole problem, since I only intersected a little with black diggers, but I think that the state does not have ability/desire to restore order in this industry at the moment.
Thank for this info. How are the archaeological sites protected? By "mounds" I assume you mean kurgans? Is there an armed patrol at some of them?
Where/how would the illegal diggers sell the artifacts they take? Aside from a the wealthier class of people in side the country, the larger market for such things is outside the country. I suppose they have their ways of smuggling things out...?
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