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You have to agree it's very suspicious they rush to referendums when they lost a momentum, sure they can still win it's not beyond the realm of possibilities but the moment Ukraine had the biggest spark of hope since February and they're so quick to make "fair" referendum lol gimme a break.
+ I was just watching some American General on Fox News who said exactly what I was saying yet some people here accuse me of switching sides so to speak: Russia cannot loose if the war is about their own survival, but they will loose in Ukraine. Plain and simple.
I'm starting to wonder now, if the rush to hold referendums is for the purpose of justifying the President's claims, that the West is attacking Russia. Not defending Ukraine, but attacking Russia. Once he can justify such a claim, he can do anything to defend his country. He'll feel justified in anything. The big Anything. The referendums are for providing him with a pretext on which to base his claim that the war is with the West, not just Ukraine. He's setting the stage.
And it's not just him, who wants to escalate the war. People in high places behind him are pushing for escalation, though they have in mind the intensified use of conventional arms. And journalists/bloggers embedded with Russia's forces in eastern Ukraine have been pushing for better support, better organization of the effort, as well.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 09-24-2022 at 08:46 AM..
May I ask why do you claim that I view Russia as a beloved place , when I specifically wrote that " None of these points are meant to suggest that the contemporary Russian Federation is a Third Rome like beacon of freedom in comparison to the West or what have you " ?
Also I must ( with all due respect of course ) remark that I find it very much regrettable that you don't seem to think it's possible for one to take a " Third Way " approach to critiquing the West and Russian Federation , as my posts regarding this general subject should clearly demonstrate .
Because you always make statements criticizing the West and defending Russia, and at best, you draw equivalences that are farfetched to say the least - very biased. And I already quoted the section where you equate the anti-pandemic public health measures in western nations to the endemic corruption, lack of true democracy, lack of rule of law, and political repression in Russia, and claiming that western nations are no more free than Russia. That is absolute rubbish!
"Of course I'll refrain from fully expounding upon this issue for want of both space and scope , but suffice to say that I cannot fathom how any society that went along with the most recent assaults on personal freedom as exemplified by 90 plus percent of COVID restrictions can be truly called 'free' , thus making Western societies no more truly dedicated to the concept of freedom than Russian society is ."
Last edited by OutdoorLover; 09-24-2022 at 09:08 AM..
I think you don't understand a very simple thing. The overwhelming majority of Russians support Putin. They may disagree on the details, but they are generally supportive.
True. And 300,000 is a drop in the bucket, a tiny percentage of the total population, or the total adult population.
Because you always make statements criticizing the West and defending Russia, and at best, you draw equivalences that are farfetched to say the least - very biased. And I already quoted the section where you equate the anti-pandemic public health measures in western nations to the endemic corruption, lack of true democracy, lack of rule of law, and political repression in Russia, and claiming that western nations are no more free than Russia. That is absolute rubbish!
"Of course I'll refrain from fully expounding upon this issue for want of both space and scope , but suffice to say that I cannot fathom how any society that went along with the most recent assaults on personal freedom as exemplified by 90 plus percent of COVID restrictions can be truly called 'free' , thus making Western societies no more truly dedicated to the concept of freedom than Russian society is ."
While you're indeed correct to point out that I've devoted more energy to critiquing the West in relation to these subjects , I have also critiqued the Pro Russian stance as well as evidenced by these posts :
I'd like to think that the last post I've linked to in particular speaks for itself in relation to whether or not I happen to be a Kremlin propagandist , because I think it's safe to say that actual Kremlin propagandists miss no chance on insisting that the Ukrainian government is comprised of Nazis .
It also happens that not only do I come across more Pro Western posts , but that the Pro Russian posters on here have ( for whatever reasons ) shied away from thoroughly engaging me , even though I would gladly take part in such a debate were the opportunity to arise .
I also do not understand why disagreeing with the Western narrative surrounding Russia equates to defending Russia , since disagreeing with a particular position doesn't mean one supports its opposite .
With respect to my statement concerning COVID restrictions as an example of the lack of true commitment to the principle of individual freedom on the part of Western societies , I must point out that right below it I wrote that " At best one can talk of certain societies being more or less free than others " which heavily implies what I was actually trying to convey , namely that while Western societies may very well be more free than Russia in certain aspects , they still aren't anymore genuinely committed to the maxim of classical liberalism ( aka do what thou wilt as long as you hurt no one ) than the Russian Federation is .
As I'm sure everyone knows virtually every other or at least third country on this planet has laws that are both more liberal and more restrictive than the laws of other countries , therefore making such broad statements as " Country X is more free than Country Y " rather inaccurate since one can immediately retort with the very valid question of " In what way ( s ) ? " .
Also I really do hope that you know my intention in posting both in this thread and throughout the entire forum as a whole , is not to alienate or antagonize anybody , but to on one hand express my opinions and on the other to contribute in my humble way to the flowering of productive discussions/debates that all participants and lurkers can hopefully find informative .
Last edited by William Blakeley; 09-24-2022 at 10:53 AM..
Going to try and find a map on Ukrainian ethnicity demographics officially within Russia land. One of the Russia news anchors that had up a Protest sign in front of live tv also is with technical Ukrainian ancestry from parents. Probably counts as very distant with no real connections. Like what I have with my Mom's Grandfather literally from Odessa Ukraine... Even when my family roots is Romania. Identical to Gorbachev/those other Russia agents with some long ago Ukrainian few relatives. We are all not really from over there. Did Putin try to not arrest, formally interrogate question, or even poison the Soviet President that died? That is the usual result to that sewer termite's own political opponent adversaries.
Something to keep in mind there are many Russians who have Ukrainian heritage who don’t identify as Ukrainian, so the number of people who still identify as Ukrainian is much less than say a 100 years ago. Today there are 1.9 million Ukrainians in Russia (1.4%)
So a little detour here: how do you folks think the mess with Russia & Ukraine will end? I grew up in the Balkans, and had always infinitely regretted that I have not visited the Golden Circle of the old Russia, or taken the TranSiberian Rail, or a barge trip down a few large Russian rivers when I was 20ish & lived in the Balkans (now am 62.5 & have lived in the US for almost 40 years - 39 to be exact) - but previously my regret was because when I was 20ish, such trips would have been dirt-cheap, while in the 21st century tourist costs of travel in Russia had skyrocketed... but now my regret is also because my Russian trips likely ain't ever happening, for obvious reasons :-(...
Anyway, back to the question. I believe the end of this will be the following:
1. some international diplomatic solution will be reached, where Russia will get all the territory it had sought (plus it will likely peacefully annex Belarus), but it will be required to pay massive reparations to Ukraine
2. Russia will try not to pay, leading to continued diplomatic squabbles & economic blockade of Russia, but no more war. Between some Russian payments & high exports, Ukraine will likely do very well economically post-reconstruction
3. European countries have learned the hard way not to deal with Russia economically. Russia, though, is self-sufficient, and will be okay remaining isolated. But I (along with everyone else) won't be able to travel there...
Still, I just wish they would get this over with & stop killing themselves & destabilizing the whole world.
So a little detour here: how do you folks think the mess with Russia & Ukraine will end? I grew up in the Balkans, and had always infinitely regretted that I have not visited the Golden Circle of the old Russia, or taken the TranSiberian Rail, or a barge trip down a few large Russian rivers when I was 20ish & lived in the Balkans (now am 62.5 & have lived in the US for almost 40 years - 39 to be exact) - but previously my regret was because when I was 20ish, such trips would have been dirt-cheap, while in the 21st century tourist costs of travel in Russia had skyrocketed... but now my regret is also because my Russian trips likely ain't ever happening, for obvious reasons :-(...
Anyway, back to the question. I believe the end of this will be the following:
1. some international diplomatic solution will be reached, where Russia will get all the territory it had sought (plus it will likely peacefully annex Belarus), but it will be required to pay massive reparations to Ukraine
2. Russia will try not to pay, leading to continued diplomatic squabbles & economic blockade of Russia, but no more war. Between some Russian payments & high exports, Ukraine will likely do very well economically post-reconstruction
3. European countries have learned the hard way not to deal with Russia economically. Russia, though, is self-sufficient, and will be okay remaining isolated. But I (along with everyone else) won't be able to travel there...
Still, I just wish they would get this over with & stop killing themselves & destabilizing the whole world.
Interesting crystal ball you have. Did you consult it before or after Putin's latest speech, accusing the West of a Satanic hegemonic conspiracy to push a Neo-colonial system of totalitarianism, despotism and apartheid against Russia and the world? These are not the words of a man open to a diplomatic solution. After going out so far on a limb, he can't back down now. He's got the public and Parliament as well all fired up in something similar to his buddy, Trump's "MAGA" zeal. This is about Russia leading the world to overthrow the evil Gang of 30 to restore national sovereignty (which he accuses the West of violating) and freedom to all. He can't walk away from that, especially if anyone in "the evil West" is involved in brokering it. Turkey recently told us they had a solution almost in hand after meetings with Russia's President, but Turkey turned out to be whistling in the wind.
Travel to Russia when you were in your 20's wasn't dirt cheap; it was far from it. Westerners had to apply to the official Russian tourism agency for a visa and to get their itinerary approved. To get the visa, they had to pre-pay hotel stays and transportation (for which they were charged twice or more what locals paid, and were restricted to 1-st class hotels only $$$) after their itinerary was approved or changed to meet approval.
I have no idea how long the current miserable situation will resolve. Not for a while. You'll have to hang on for 5-10 years, and hope you're still in good enough shape to travel, when things change for the better. I feel your pain. I had some projects on my to-do list for Russia, but they're a lost cause for now.
In hopes of adding more to the Russian culture related aspect of this thread , I thought that I may as well share the stance of the late historian Edward Crankshaw concerning Russian cultural attitudes in relation to
Russian political behavior , taken from his article entitled " Russia in Europe: The Conflict of Values " .
" The Russian is a man who regards compromise not as a sign of strength, but as a sign of the dilution of the personality, or self-betrayal, who is, moreover, susceptible in the extreme to outside influence of every kind, who is, in a word, completely experimental and mentally free, in a way that, in the West, only artists are experimental and free ( and by no means all of those ) " .
He continues on with writing that such a profoundly anarchical people in despair of finding an inner cohesion are willing to accept control from above as a necessary evil , with in conclusion adding that " All this, I suggest, is the rigidity of a naturally fluid people who have to forge hoops of iron around themselves or disintegrate utterly. And it all comes from a natural individualism which makes our vaunted, rugged individualism look like an abandonment of personality " .
In short he happened to be of the opinion that Russians , very similarly to arguably all other " Eastern Europeans " , happen to be very freedom loving in the anarchic sense of the term as opposed to being freedom loving in the ordered liberty sense of the term ( like Anglo peoples are ) a factor which is very much worth considering when it comes to the issue of trying to make sense of Russian politics in relation to Russian culture .
Interesting crystal ball you have. Did you consult it before or after Putin's latest speech, accusing the West of a Satanic hegemonic conspiracy to push a Neo-colonial system of totalitarianism, despotism and apartheid against Russia and the world? These are not the words of a man open to a diplomatic solution. After going out so far on a limb, he can't back down now. He's got the public and Parliament as well all fired up in something similar to his buddy, Trump's "MAGA" zeal. This is about Russia leading the world to overthrow the evil Gang of 30 to restore national sovereignty (which he accuses the West of violating) and freedom to all. He can't walk away from that, especially if anyone in "the evil West" is involved in brokering it. Turkey recently told us they had a solution almost in hand after meetings with Russia's President, but Turkey turned out to be whistling in the wind.
Travel to Russia when you were in your 20's wasn't dirt cheap; it was far from it. Westerners had to apply to the official Russian tourism agency for a visa and to get their itinerary approved. To get the visa, they had to pre-pay hotel stays and transportation (for which they were charged twice or more what locals paid, and were restricted to 1-st class hotels only $$$) after their itinerary was approved or changed to meet approval.
I have no idea how long the current miserable situation will resolve. Not for a while. You'll have to hang on for 5-10 years, and hope you're still in good enough shape to travel, when things change for the better. I feel your pain. I had some projects on my to-do list for Russia, but they're a lost cause for now.
I think Putin going on about the West is just talk. I think Russia is okay with getting itself isolated from the world again, since they are self-sufficient, so Putin can talk trash about the West all he wants, but I don't think he is interested in attacking the West. He just wants the territory, some pieces of Ukraine (since annexing the whole country of Ukrainians who dislike Russians obviously is not feasible) - I think he'd agree to pay reparations, he does not care about anything other than those pieces of land. I think that would be the best deal for Ukraine too under the circumstances, because Ukraine is a big country that can do without those items that Putin wants, and if they make him pay, that can help rebuild the country. Otherwise he'll just continue terrorizing them (btw I don't think he will nuke them. Ukraine is too close to Russia, radiation does not stop at the border, and throwing the bomb on Kyiv would not be much different from Russia nuking itself).
Re travel to Russia from the Balkans 40 years ago, it WAS super cheap. Yes, the itinerary would have been rigid & required pre-approval, but the visa was easy to get, and the transportation/lodging in Russia was cheap. People didn't visit Russia too much because it was considered a miserable & uncool destination, but I thought those three specific itineraries that I mentioned would have been interesting. Well, too late now.
Almost 2 Million ethnic Ukrainians back in 2010 official statistics count is a big deal. For now on, since this year, Russian citizens of this exact demographic have to be in denial on reporting facts+partial ethnicity.
Why isn't Russia not getting sabotaged with Chechnya style inner domestic terrorist attacks? Back in 2003-2009, the International objective news media expressed mass hostage bombings in a school, and theatre within Russia territory. Can't believe Russia didn't get any of this quite yet.
From RUSSIA = ) = ( to =/ russia... = O >.< =_( is a solid inevitable among native citizens. Even without ever any World War III.
The number of Russian people who identify themselves as "Ukrainians" shrank by 2 millions under Putin alone. And it is one of the last waves of Russification. There were many more russification waves in the past that virtually wiped out Ukrainian self identification in many Russian Federation regions colonized primarily by Ukrainians. Kuban, Volgograd region, Far East used to have dominant presence of Ukrainians, now it is total annihilation, Ukrainian self identification was thoroughly wiped out. Tens of millions of people with Ukrainian roots live in Russian Federation proper but they are not Ukrainians. The toxic chauvinism infested Russian environment together with government repressions and propaganda not just turned Ukrainians into biomass for the empire, it eradicated any good feelings towards their ancestral homeland. Russified Ukrainians are saturated to the brims with Russian imperialist supremacist bs, DNA makeup has no impact on one's views, it is all about environment.
Russian troops from Far East that commited atrocities in Bucha have so many soldiers with Ukrainian styled last names, it did not help Bucha residents a bit. Russian Far East was colonized by Ukrainian peasants back in the days of the Russian Empire. Their descendants are Russian nazis, behaving like nazis and holding typical Russian nazi chauvinist views or worse.
Last edited by RememberMee; 10-01-2022 at 01:32 AM..
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I had some projects on my to-do list for Russia, but they're a lost cause for now.