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Russia has developed into a Wild West form of capitalism. Longterm and sustainable wealth is a marathon, not a sprint. You are fortunate in being so rich in raw materials, but they won't last forever, and to be so reliant means you are at the mercy of world prices. It's obvious to everyone who is not in the Russian bubble that Putin is trying to cover up for the inadequacies of Russian society and economy by playing the international strongman. He controls the media and the opposition barely gets a look-in (if they actually survive). Do you really think anyone sees the Ukrainian conflict as anything but a naked attempt to deflect domestic opinion? The EU could have been seen as a partner, and it is certainly how it saw itself in the early days post Gorby. I would agree it could have handled the Ukranian situation better, but it's Putin that is making an enemy of the West and not the other way around. All governments manipulate their people to some degree, but Putin has turned it into an artform.
You have to come again and see Putin's Russia. I think you'll be very surprised. Taxi drivers do not ride on the old golfs without seat belts. Russian people support Putin for it. He stopped Wild West form of capitalism. Yes, he headed the corruption, but people have a better life.
Gorbachev made unsuccessful reform. He cut down valuable varieties of vineyards and caused great damage to domestic producers of wine (Massandra, Abrau Durso and others).
I agree that the problem exists. But over last 10 years situation has improved. I remember how people were drinking 15 years ago and how people drink today. In my opinion the situation has become better. According to statistics, Russia is not much stands out among other European countries. Main problem is children's drinking. For example, I and my classmates started drinking still at school. We were 15 years old. Smoke began at age 14. It was the '90s. But I see that situation is changing for the better.
OK, I'll take your word for it. Thanks for bringing me up-to-date.
Well, we hardly escaped the two world wars unscathed. We never really recovered from No 2 if truth were told.
What you don't seem to understand is that after the Russian revolution of 1991, the country had massive goodwill from most of the world. As somebody who visited Moscow in 1988, I had a least a taste of what the country was like after 50 years of communism, and nobody could expect a sudden conversion to a fully functioning, capitalist liberal democracy. My comment on leaving was "I don't know how anyone maintains any dignity in that". After 10 days in Communist Moscow, a British Airways meal never tasted better.
It had plenty of "time".
The problem was that the move from one type of society to another was mis-handled. There was more pain than there needed to be. A handful of smart types saw opportunities and made huge fortunes. Most folk suffered, and felt humiliated in the process. I visited some time after the collapse of the old regime, and whilst things were obviously better, folk were still sour faced. Service was laughably bad. Food terrible. I remember the taxi back to the airport - a beat up old Golf in appalling condition. "Oh, no seatbelts" I said to the driver, nervously. "No need seatbelt - Russia FREE COUNTRY!" he shouted. It was funny and very illuminating. Very scary ride.
Russia has developed into a Wild West form of capitalism. Longterm and sustainable wealth is a marathon, not a sprint. You are fortunate in being so rich in raw materials, but they won't last forever, and to be so reliant means you are at the mercy of world prices. It's obvious to everyone who is not in the Russian bubble that Putin is trying to cover up for the inadequacies of Russian society and economy by playing the international strongman. He controls the media and the opposition barely gets a look-in (if they actually survive). Do you really think anyone sees the Ukrainian conflict as anything but a naked attempt to deflect domestic opinion? The EU could have been seen as a partner, and it is certainly how it saw itself in the early days post Gorby. I would agree it could have handled the Ukranian situation better, but it's Putin that is making an enemy of the West and not the other way around. All governments manipulate their people to some degree, but Putin has turned it into an artform.
I guess it has been a while since you have been to Russia...
Putin is popular because he put an end to a lot of the crony capitalism that exploded under Yelstin. I have watched Russia increase its standard of living ten fold since Putin took over; this is why he is popular and something those outside Russia seem to not understand. When the economic crisis hit in the 90's, people were lining up for salt, bread, etc. When the ruble crisis hit last year, people were lining up to buy cars, washing machines, etc, a far, far difference would you not say?
You also forget the crony capitalism was heavily influenced by the West, who assisted Russia to migrate its economic system from state to privatization; it is not like Russia just upped and invented it all, the West showed them the way.
The West, mainly the US, made an enemy of Russia when it got out Cheney, then Sec of Def, stated "he wished the Russian state itself would have disintegrated along with the USSR" during the events of the USSR crumbling; this has long echoed in the Russian political sphere and with its people. It has been talked about for 20 years that the West has a goal of breaking the Russia state up, in order to exploit the smaller states better and rape its resources as they do with other countries. The path to this has been to chip away at the Russian peripheral; central Asia and Ukraine. The West has failed in central Asia so far, but has managed well in Ukraine. Do you really not expect a response from Russia on this? The West did, but probably not so severe as what happened, this is why you see such a response in the form of sanctions only; no one is amassing troops to assist in returning Crimea to Ukraine (like with Kuwait during the first Gulf War), even Ukraine is not doing so nor did they defend it, they knew what was up.
I guess it has been a while since you have been to Russia...
Putin is popular because he put an end to a lot of the crony capitalism that exploded under Yelstin. I have watched Russia increase its standard of living ten fold since Putin took over; this is why he is popular and something those outside Russia seem to not understand. When the economic crisis hit in the 90's, people were lining up for salt, bread, etc. When the ruble crisis hit last year, people were lining up to buy cars, washing machines, etc, a far, far difference would you not say?
This is all wrong and pure Putin propaganda.
Crony capitalism vastly expanded under Putin. Putin is a tool of some of the richest people on earth. In fact many analysts believe Putin is the richest person on earth, at least in terms of defacto wealth.
The rich in Moscow even put ambulance sirens on their cars when they go to the grocery store, or to the doctor, or to pick up their children, so that the regular Russians are forced to pull over for the Putin cronies.
The urban middle class has suffered mightily under Putin, which is why he is least popular in the big cities and among the educated, and why they are all trying to flee for the U.S. or Western Europe.
The poor often like Putin because they have always been poor and neglected under any Soviet/Russian ruler and they love his Stalin-like aggression and faked ultra-patriotism.
I guess it has been a while since you have been to Russia...
Putin is popular because he put an end to a lot of the crony capitalism that exploded under Yelstin. I have watched Russia increase its standard of living ten fold since Putin took over; this is why he is popular and something those outside Russia seem to not understand. When the economic crisis hit in the 90's, people were lining up for salt, bread, etc. When the ruble crisis hit last year, people were lining up to buy cars, washing machines, etc, a far, far difference would you not say?
I don't know anyone whose standard of living has increased ten-fold, or even five-fold or two-fold. One thing that's improved is infrastructure; during his first administration, he put a lot of money into building new roads and bridges, and such. However, most people's lives haven't changed. Sure, in Western Russia, especially Moscow and St. Pete, some people have been able to start successful businesses, and are doing well. (And even in Siberia and the Far East.) That's a tiny minority, when you consider the total population. The average worker, university instructor, museum curator, or ministry staff member, is living the same life as before; they're not in a position to buy a car. The older ones are hoping the pension fund will remain stable, and be able to provide for them when they retire, and they're hedging their bets by working as long as they can, to 65 and beyond. (As many Americans now have to do.)
To be fair, I must applaud Putin for reforming the tax code, something Yeltsin promised to do, but never did. This is what opened the door to people starting businesses. Many people tried in the 90's, but their businesses were crushed due to oppressive taxes.
What has improved for average folks is that they can take vacations abroad now; they're not only allowed to, but they can afford it, if they choose. But they're living in the same apartments as they've always had. Your statement implies that they've been able to move to a larger apartment, but this isn't true. Again, for the successful businessmen, your statement holds true. Some people have been able to build or buy their own home. But these are a small percentage of the total population.
What really made a big difference for people in Asian Russia was when foreign tourism arrived, especially when Germany was doing a lot of business with Russia, opening factories, and promoting tourism. This caused a ripple effect that provided more opportunities of various sorts for local people across the country. However, Russia has always been unreceptive to tourism from the outside. The regime doesn't really support that; rather, it tends to regard it with suspicion. So these opportunities for the local people tend to vanish as quickly as they appear. This is something Putin could do something about, but he hasn't. Because he's not keen on foreigners, either. Tourism is an important part of economic development for every country around the world. This could really help Russia, but the will isn't there.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 06-04-2015 at 02:10 PM..
Crony capitalism vastly expanded under Putin. Putin is a tool of some of the richest people on earth. In fact many analysts believe Putin is the richest person on earth, at least in terms of defacto wealth.
No it did not, crony capitalism was greatly curtailed under Putin. Under Yelstin, it was a free for all and rather chaotic, even basic property rights were absent and not enforced. Under Putin, a lot of this went away. Far from perfect, but not even close to what it was in the 1990's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101
The rich in Moscow even put ambulance sirens on their cars when they go to the grocery store, or to the doctor, or to pick up their children, so that the regular Russians are forced to pull over for the Putin cronies.
Yea, pretty stupid, but rare as I never actually witnessed it and I have spent a great deal of time there in my life. The Moscow mayor has cracked down on this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101
The urban middle class has suffered mightily under Putin, which is why he is least popular in the big cities and among the educated, and why they are all trying to flee for the U.S. or Western Europe.
LOL, the middle class has expended greatly under Putin. Goodness, you are way off the mark on this. Let's see; GDP per capita in 2000 was $1,700. In 2013 it was $14,500. Yea, looks like the middle class really got hammered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101
The poor often like Putin because they have always been poor and neglected under any Soviet/Russian ruler and they love his Stalin-like aggression and faked ultra-patriotism.
The poor do not like Putin, his votes come from the middle class in the cities. A simple Google search of the election results can tell you this. The poor like to latch on to the national part and to a certain extent, the communist party because a lot of the poor are also elderly who remember better times under the USSR and did not prosper under the new economic system.
I don't know anyone whose standard of living has increased ten-fold, or even five-fold or two-fold. One thing that's improved is infrastructure; during his first administration, he put a lot of money into building new roads and bridges, and such. However, most people's lives haven't changed. Sure, in Western Russia, especially Moscow and St. Pete, some people have been able to start successful businesses, and are doing well. (And even in Siberia and the Far East.) That's a tiny minority, when you consider the total population. The average worker, university instructor, museum curator, or ministry staff member, is living the same life as before; they're not in a position to buy a car. The older ones are hoping the pension fund will remain stable, and be able to provide for them when they retire, and they're hedging their bets by working as long as they can, to 65 and beyond. (As many Americans now have to do.)
GDP per capita has increased from $1,700 in 2000 to $14,500 in 2013; exactly how is that not an improvement?
Yes, there are poor people, is any country absent of any? There are millions of people on food stamps in the US, yet we are a wealthy country? Oh yes, we are a wealthy country. Stating some low skilled workers in Russia cannot afford a car and is an indicator of overall conditions is ridiculous, that is like me stating because Walmart worker Joe cannot afford his own apartment and car on $9.25/hr the US has a poor standard of living.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
To be fair, I must applaud Putin for reforming the tax code, something Yeltsin promised to do, but never did. This is what opened the door to people starting businesses. Many people tried in the 90's, but their businesses were crushed due to oppressive taxes.
This is why Yelstin picked Putin, he knew he could get things done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
What has improved for average folks is that they can take vacations abroad now; they're not only allowed to, but they can afford it, if they choose. But they're living in the same apartments as they've always had. Your statement implies that they've been able to move to a larger apartment, but this isn't true. Again, for the successful businessmen, your statement holds true. Some people have been able to build or buy their own home. But these are a small percentage of the total population.
Larger apartment? Serious? And the numerous people on section 8 in the US are a reflection of the standard of living in the US? You do not remember the great stories and threads about how great the micro apartments are so people can afford to live in some cities, the complaints that people cannot afford an apartment without a roommate? Yes, again, there are poor people, they exist, they exist in a large number in the wealthiest country in the world, the US, but hardly a reflection of the standard of living for many people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
What really made a big difference for people in Asian Russia was when foreign tourism arrived, especially when Germany was doing a lot of business with Russia, opening factories, and promoting tourism. This caused a ripple effect that provided more opportunities of various sorts for local people across the country. However, Russia has always been unreceptive to tourism from the outside. The regime doesn't really support that; rather, it tends to regard it with suspicion. So these opportunities for the local people tend to vanish as quickly as they appear. This is something Putin could do something about, but he hasn't. Because he's not keen on foreigners, either. Tourism is an important part of economic development for every country around the world. This could really help Russia, but the will isn't there.
Russia does not care about tourism, and that is their right to. I disagree with the approach they make, but actually, I fail to see how they deter tourism. it is absurdly easy to get a visa, and all the registering and stuff is pretty transparent as you really do not do anything, the hotel does; it is more of a paperwork exercise than anything else. Facilities are great in places like St. Pete and Moscow.
I don't know anyone whose standard of living has increased ten-fold, or even five-fold or two-fold. One thing that's improved is infrastructure; during his first administration, he put a lot of money into building new roads and bridges, and such. However, most people's lives haven't changed. Sure, in Western Russia, especially Moscow and St. Pete, some people have been able to start successful businesses, and are doing well. (And even in Siberia and the Far East.) That's a tiny minority, when you consider the total population. The average worker, university instructor, museum curator, or ministry staff member, is living the same life as before; they're not in a position to buy a car. The older ones are hoping the pension fund will remain stable, and be able to provide for them when they retire, and they're hedging their bets by working as long as they can, to 65 and beyond. (As many Americans now have to do.)
To be fair, I must applaud Putin for reforming the tax code, something Yeltsin promised to do, but never did. This is what opened the door to people starting businesses. Many people tried in the 90's, but their businesses were crushed due to oppressive taxes.
What has improved for average folks is that they can take vacations abroad now; they're not only allowed to, but they can afford it, if they choose. But they're living in the same apartments as they've always had. Your statement implies that they've been able to move to a larger apartment, but this isn't true. Again, for the successful businessmen, your statement holds true. Some people have been able to build or buy their own home. But these are a small percentage of the total population.
What really made a big difference for people in Asian Russia was when foreign tourism arrived, especially when Germany was doing a lot of business with Russia, opening factories, and promoting tourism. This caused a ripple effect that provided more opportunities of various sorts for local people across the country. However, Russia has always been unreceptive to tourism from the outside. The regime doesn't really support that; rather, it tends to regard it with suspicion. So these opportunities for the local people tend to vanish as quickly as they appear. This is something Putin could do something about, but he hasn't. Because he's not keen on foreigners, either. Tourism is an important part of economic development for every country around the world. This could really help Russia, but the will isn't there.
I remember a time in the 90s when my parents have not received salaries for several months. Sometimes employers pay wages barter (for example, gave all salary butter or vodka). Now this is not. I think that if we compare 1995 and 2015, the difference in income will be 5-10 times.
Currently, everyone can afford to buy a used car. Prices start at $ 300 for old VAZ-2104. Of course, significant portion Russian population lives below poverty line so far. It is a sad fact.
I never paid attention to foreign tourism, perhaps you're right. But I think that main problem is language barrier. English poorly known in Russia.
GDP per capita has increased from $1,700 in 2000 to $14,500 in 2013; exactly how is that not an improvement?
Yes, there are poor people, is any country absent of any? There are millions of people on food stamps in the US, yet we are a wealthy country? Oh yes, we are a wealthy country. Stating some low skilled workers in Russia cannot afford a car and is an indicator of overall conditions is ridiculous, that is like me stating because Walmart worker Joe cannot afford his own apartment and car on $9.25/hr the US has a poor standard of living.
Larger apartment? Serious? And the numerous people on section 8 in the US are a reflection of the standard of living in the US? You do not remember the great stories and threads about how great the micro apartments are so people can afford to live in some cities, the complaints that people cannot afford an apartment without a roommate? Yes, again, there are poor people, they exist, they exist in a large number in the wealthiest country in the world, the US, but hardly a reflection of the standard of living for many people.
Russia does not care about tourism, and that is their right to. I disagree with the approach they make, but actually, I fail to see how they deter tourism. it is absurdly easy to get a visa, and all the registering and stuff is pretty transparent as you really do not do anything, the hotel does; it is more of a paperwork exercise than anything else. Facilities are great in places like St. Pete and Moscow.
Why are you calling university professors and museum curators "low skilled workers"? Why would those be classified as "poor people"? Why are you comparing people on Section 8 to factory workers and university-educated people in the professions?
One way tourism is deterred: managers of regional airports obstructing "commerce", meaning--not allowing routine flights to leave based on some pretext. Alaska Airlines served several destinations in the Far East for years with no problem, until the airport authority in Khabarovsk caused some problem. One of their planes was forced to sit on the tarmac for hours and hours. No one was allowed off, even just to go back to the international flights waiting room for food or to use the bathrooms. Alaska Air never returned to Russia after that. Until then, they'd not only been flying to several ports, they were filling entire planes with their own tour groups, destined for Baikal. Environmental organizations were also organizing tours to Baikal, hiring locals as coordinators and guides. All of that vanished instantly when direct flights from the US were no longer available. There's also the matter of foreigners having to register with the police and pay a large fee when staying in any city longer than 3 days. In some areas, this is a fee that needs to be paid daily. This makes travel unaffordable for a lot of people.
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Thanks for bringing me up-to-date.
