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I'm talking about Ile-de-France, not France. GDP per Capita of Ile-de-France (roughly Paris and its suburbs, but a little by more) is closer to 70K$ , including Seine Saint Denis or Val de Marne (not rich at all). This region of France has 12M inhabitants. Netherlands 17.
As an image, if Ile-de-France leaves France with its 12M inhabitants, it'll have a comparable GDP as Netherlands with 5 M people less. London is the same or even more. That's all.
For the GDP of Paris & co, I just took 28% of french GDP given by Google (ie, World Bank I think), that's an estimation of the weight of Paris in the French economy (which varies too, sometimes 28% sometimes 31%..). There are hundreds of various estimations, nominal, ppp, usd... so I just choosed this one in USD as a percentage of the french GDP in 2016... It's extremely rustic but gives the tendancy. It also gives a gdp per capita = 60k$ for Ile-de-France
For more serious figures in french computed by the very serious INSEE in euros (no differences of exchange rates with USD) :
Ile-de-France = GDP of 642billion euros in 2013
per capita = 53 000 euros in 2013
Is it more clear ? Just read about Ile-de-France economy...not France.
The size of the population is not why the comparison is strange.
Paris is the capital region of France. Capital regions are almost always wealthier than the provinces, and it is especially true when looking at a nation that is highly centralized such as France. As you point out yourself nearly a third of the French economy is located in Paris. Paris doesn’t have provinces, Netherlands does, this fact skewers the data and makes the comparison invalid.
You could turn it around. The total GDP of The Netherlands is comparable to the southern regions of France (pretty much half of France). Therefore, the Netherlands' power is equal to half of France despite its low(ish) population.
This would also be invalid as those three regions lack a capital region.
EU provides plenty of data on the subject, here’s a report:
The size of the population is not why the comparison is strange.
Paris is the capital region of France. Capital regions are almost always wealthier than the provinces, and it is especially true when looking at a nation that is highly centralized such as France. As you point out yourself nearly a third of the French economy is located in Paris. Paris doesn’t have provinces, Netherlands does, this fact skewers the data and makes the comparison invalid.
You could turn it around. The total GDP of The Netherlands is comparable to the southern regions of France (pretty much half of France). Therefore, the Netherlands' power is equal to half of France despite its low(ish) population.
This would also be invalid as those three regions lack a capital region.
EU provides plenty of data on the subject, here’s a report:
You think idk that Paris area isn't a country while Netherlands is ? Why we couldn't compare a NUTS1 like Ile-de-France and Netherlands ? Because Eurostat doesn't divide Ile de France properly? Since they are roughly the same?
Why not with greater London too btw?
I'm just saying that Netherlands isn't "more successfull" than other (dynamic) areas in Europe like OP said (well what I understood). It applies good recipe of a mature liberal economy, is very reactive, and very attractive for financial activity.
I'll add that the scale of Eurostats is sometimes weirdly choosen, Ile-de-France is considered as a NUTS1...and gives a biaised POV (cf first ranking). You don't compare Ile de France and Hamburg. That's a joke. Well Eurostats does like jokes sometimes. You compare Hamburg with Hauts-de-Seine for example.
Besides, basing every POV around GDP is also debatable because it's more or less an indicator of the value of the (entire) economic activity of a country. Not the only indicator of wealth, specially at the microeconomic level. Ofc Netherlands has an excellent economy, we can see it through various figures.
An other remark, Idk if the ppp is computed for each NUTS too, because live in Clermont-Ferrand with 1500euros per month is acceptable, in Paris... lolilol, even in Seine Saint Denis it's rough.
And yes, there are very poor areas in France, Seine-Saint-Denis in Ile de France is one of them. But Center of France is poor too I never denied it, as well as many places.
Sud-Ouest + Centre-Est + Mediterranee = 684 B for 22.9 M inhabitants
While NH is 676 for 17 M.
While Idf is 659 for 12 M.
It's maybe just a capital region, yet it has more inhabitants than Belgium. So saying the comparison is invalid is again very debatable. If they compare IDF with Luxembourg (didn't create any problems for Eurostats...) , then I compare IDF with Netherlands that's all.
Last edited by Pokitobounto; 07-25-2017 at 03:38 AM..
Such a small country yet so powerful....What is its secret?
What secret?
Independence from Spain after the Eighty Years War, long-time alliance with England/UK, good governance, good resource transformation entities, in particular good shipping, good canal building, good deal makers, good money handlers.
Central France isn't poor, people probably live better on average than in Paris region, despite its GDP per capita being only a fraction of it.
And you can't compare the GDP per capita of entire countries to that of capital regions because that's where the highly poductive jobs and big companies are concentrated.
Central France isn't poor, people probably live better on average than in Paris region, despite its GDP per capita being only a fraction of it.
And you can't compare the GDP per capita of entire countries to that of capital regions because that's where the highly poductive jobs and big companies are concentrated.
And yes that's was my question, idk how they compute their basket of goods to correct the difference of prices, each regions or entire France one shot. Because yes, it introduce a biais when they weight the gdp per capita (pps). But it's true for every countries tho.
Parisians are probably "poorer" than what we see (yet when you drive a little in the west, I'm not worried for them and their savings...), and other french more "rich".
Last edited by Pokitobounto; 07-25-2017 at 06:01 AM..
And yes that's was my question, idk how they compute their basket of goods to correct the difference of prices, each regions or entire France one shot. Because yes, it introduce a biais when they weight the gdp per capita (pps). But it's true for every countries tho.
Parisians are probably "poorer" than what we see (yet when you drive a little in the west, I'm not worried for them and their savings...), and other french more "rich".
No one denies Paris' power. However, the point is it is unfair to compare IDF with the Netherlands. The reason is simple: Ile de France can pull all the best resources from all over the country, therefore becomes the ultra-rich region due to France's centralization policy. So on paper, it will naturally have the highest GDP per capita etc. The Netherlands can't.
Yes, Ile de France would be richer than the Netherlands if it were a country. However, it is wrong because if Ile de France were a country, it would do much worse than it does today, because the rest of France wouldn't be there to support it.
If you look at all regions of France, Ile de France is much higher than national average. What's more shocking is, it seems to be the only region that is higher than the national average. This doesn't show how wealthy Paris is, it shows how Paris is capable of sucking wealth from the rest of the country. It shows how France uses all the resources to build one city, at the cost of others. There are regional difference in other countries, but I have yet to another example where the biggest city is the only place that can beat national average.
data (per capita GDP - 2011)
1. Ile de France 71,000
2. Rhone-Alpes 42,500
National average (metropolitan France): 43,100 which is higher than the second richest region. Very few countries act like that.
No one denies Paris' power. However, the point is it is unfair to compare IDF with the Netherlands. The reason is simple: Ile de France can pull all the best resources from all over the country, therefore becomes the ultra-rich region due to France's centralization policy. So on paper, it will naturally have the highest GDP per capita etc. The Netherlands can't.
And? I will tell you that Netherlands is in between UK, Belgium, Germany an ultra dense area that commutes very well. Every economic area has its specificities, then a question is, would Netherlands be that rich at the (geographic) place of Greece or Portugal ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli
Yes, Ile de France would be richer than the Netherlands if it were a country. However, it is wrong because if Ile de France were a country, it would do much worse than it does today, because the rest of France wouldn't be there to support it.
Thank you...I'm not sure you need to detail me this
Quote:
Originally Posted by botticelli
If you look at all regions of France, Ile de France is much higher than national average. What's more shocking is, it seems to be the only region that is higher than the national average. This doesn't show how wealthy Paris is, it shows how Paris is capable of sucking wealth from the rest of the country. It shows how France uses all the resources to build one city, at the cost of others. There are regional difference in other countries, but I have yet to another example where the biggest city is the only place that can beat national average.
No. It shows that the mean is skewed by the (heavy) weight of Paris. Doesn't mean other areas are poor. Besides, the price index is also probably heavily influenced by Paris metro if they don't correct prices region by region (which is suspect...idk tho).
When you check the net median income (cf OECD...) of households, you get rid of this phenomenon. And you see what people have in their pocket, not only how valued is the economy. Since 18% of french live in Paris area, you still have a good idea about the "level of life" outside the shadow of Paris, for the 82% left. I don't really like GDP based stuffs anyway -or- other POV should be added to have a more global view.
Anyway that's my POV period. I consider London as (well, more) successfull as Netherlands even if it's a capital-region before being a "region-country". Eurostats compare regions and cities, I compare regions and countries
Don't see why you would compare a region of a country with a country...This ÃŽle-de-France vs Neederlands makes no sense to me.
I m comparing areas with similar economic weight. I don't see Netherlands as a model of success compare to Sweden, Switzerland, London or Paris. That's all.
Compare to the best (say Switzerland) , it's just a norm country, and has a very reactive and liberal economy in the heart of the heart of Europe .
When I drive through Ardennes or Creuse, I see poverty, not wealth. Good for 2 weeks in August, but nobody want to live there.
Ardennes is a deprived department that failed its industrial conversion as many other areas of northern France. That's not central France though. And yea Creuse has a lot of impoverished farmers and old people just getting by. However, the regions surrounding Clermont-Ferrand or Limoges, among others in central France, are pretty average and driving through them isn't anything special. The region overall doesn't feel like an outlier. Sure, the wages are much higher in Paris area, but they're eaten up by the sky high rents. Maisons-Alfort might be OK, but cross the Seine and go to Villejuif, Vitry or Thiais, these aren't exactly places where the average Joe enjoys a lavish lifestyle. When I think of poor regions, I think of northern France, the Mediterranean arc from Marseille to Spain and the northeastern quadrant of Paris metro, mostly the areas in dark red on this unemployment map: https://fr.actualitix.com/blog/wp-co...epartement.png
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lolilol, even in Seine Saint Denis it's rough. 
