[IAm_FloridaBorn]

Originally Posted by boxus

I am for a mass trans plans, I just think the current proposals are garbage and a waste of money, and will be yet another money hole. The people proposing these plans seem like they have zero clue as to what a synchronized mass transit system is, just looking at the metromover here in Miami can tell me that.

Whats wrong with the Metro mover?

[City Guy997S]

Originally Posted by FlyMIA

This would have been a HUGE HUGE WASTE OF MONEY. See:
The Northeast corridor has the highest passenger volume of any Amtrak route, greatly enhancing efficiency. The corridor's high-speed Acela Express made a profit of about $41 per passenger. The more heavily utilized Northeast Regional lost almost $5 per passenger.

Read more: Amtrak Loses $32 Per Passenger - Business Insider

So yes the Acella between DC-PHL-NYC-BOS four cities connected by a megapolis all with great to good public transit is bascially the only train line in the US that makes money. Yet you guys really think a train between Miami-Orlando-Tampa makes sense? Who is going to ride this thing? I know I most likely wouldnt. I guess it could be decent for people wanting to go to Orlando for a weekend and the theme parks would have shuttle buses taking them to the resorts. Besides for that demographic who else would use it. It is a waste of public funding. Metrorail in Miami was suppose to be great too.

Now if the $2 billion were given to these three cities for public transit improvments, something Miami especially needs that would make sense. But rail in the US does not work, at least not until oil prices get even higher. Besides for the Boswash megapolis it just a waste. The only other high speed rail I could see work well would be LA-Vegas. I do not beleive this study for a second.

Just to clarify (since you quoted my original post) that I agree with you and when I spoke about Boston/NY trains I ment the local trains MBTA/Long Island trains not Amtrak routes.....

[blacksmith76]

Originally Posted by boxus

"Why would navigating a bus or trolley system be any less cumbersome than a train system?"

Because the train will be from point A to point B, whereas a bus system is a zig zag of inefficiency. This is not Miami specific, this is a US thing. Heck, in colelge it would take 45 minutes on a bus just to to the same as a 20 minute drive. US mass trans sucks, there is not even anything to debate about that in my opinion. After living overseas for many years, I realize even more how much it sucks. I am a mass tranit fan, I even live in Brickell and walk to work, so it is not like I have some bias against it.

"Yesterday I filled my tank for $3.85/gallon. There's no reason to believe those prices are going anywhere but up in the decades to come. A drive from Tampa to West Palm Beach is now more expensive than an Amtrack ticket ($58/roundtrip). I-95 through south FLorida is just about "maxed out" in terms of expansion opportunities.:"

Make it even $5 a gallon, the train still would not be cost efficient. Why? Because even after getting from Tampa to WPB, a person still will need to pay and use up valuable time getting around. At the end of the day, they will see the obvious that renting a car (or driving their own) in the first place would have saved the hassle and allowed flexibility, plus time savings. Look back at their trip and state "for an extra fifty bucks, we could have had a car and skip all the mass tranit hassle".

I would love for a mass tranit system here, my I used it every day overseas and know that Japan's and most of Europe's systems puts ours to shame it terms of costs, ease of use, and the efficiency of it. I can, without even knowing the langauge, dit-dot aorund to almost every square centimeter of Europe without so much a hassle or much of a wait. I tried the mass transit thing here in a few places and what a joke, heck, my co-worker takes an hour and 15 mintues to get to work via bus on what should be a 30 minute trip, and the bus does not run during the day, just morning and evenings.

So yes, build the rail, but it will just start and end in places that do not have an efficient mass trans structure, and at the end of the day, a simple car would be either cheaper, cost the same, or cost more but knowing that extra cost allowed mroe flexibility, time savings, and less hassle than the train.

Denver has a great light rail system. Once you start connecting a lot of transit nodes, the areas become more desirable and businesses begin springing up. Denver started with connecting places like stadiums, colleges, nightlife areas, etc. and went from there. It takes some planning, but it's not rocket science.

[Kevin from Tampa]

I don't believe the ridership estimates in this study for a minute.

Almost 6900 people a day using this thing in 2016?

THERE IS ALREADY A TRAIN THAT RUNS BETWEEN TAMPA AND ORLANDO...and it takes only 20 minutes longer than this "bullet train" would have taken.

If there is so much demand for this service, why aren't there multiple daily trips on the train service THAT ALREADY EXISTS?

You already can take a train to Tampa! – The Mike Thomas Blog – Orlando Sentinel

Amtrak - Reservations - Fare Finder

[Kevin from Tampa]

I want to also re-state that I am generally for mass transit...but only when and where it makes sense. Putting this ridiculous "bullet train" into place would have been a cart-before-the-horse move. It would be like building an interstate highway between two places that don't have roads.

I think people who support it either...

a-hate Rick Scott (which I can understand, actually)
b-just think "BULLET TRAIN! COOL! Now we can be like Europe! Yay!"
c-Have not thought this through, fully...they just think if we build it, people will use it. I mean, after all, they use the subway in NYC, right? But they're not thinking about anything beyond that.

A HSR line between TPA-ORL, as proposed, would take 90 minutes and cost something like 30 bucks, IIRC. The existing train line that I wrote about above take 111 minutes and costs 15 bucks.

Why isn't it carrying 2.5M a year, as the study in the OP's link talks about?

[boxus]

Originally Posted by blacksmith76

Denver has a great light rail system. Once you start connecting a lot of transit nodes, the areas become more desirable and businesses begin springing up. Denver started with connecting places like stadiums, colleges, nightlife areas, etc. and went from there. It takes some planning, but it's not rocket science.

That is the city of Denver, not a city to city rail system as I was speaking about. Miami (where I live) already has a need for an efficient mass trans system and there is not one here, I seriously doubt connecting a train (and as a poster already stated, there is a train that connects to Miami) would all of a sudden make the mass transit magic happen.

[boxus]

Originally Posted by IAm_FloridaBorn

Whats wrong with the Metro mover?

Well, if you have to ask, you probably never been anywhere that you could compare it to. The routes are wrong and the stations are too close together, makes for a redundant waste of money, a station should be further than a three minute walk, and the circle thing through downtown is a bit much when the entire east and west side of Miami has zero train options and a garbage bus system. They could have spaced the stations out, did away with the city loop, extend this thing south a little, north a little, and two areas to the west, and put in a link with Miami Beach.

[IAm_FloridaBorn]

Originally Posted by boxus

Well, if you have to ask, you probably never been anywhere that you could compare it to. The routes are wrong and the stations are too close together, makes for a redundant waste of money, a station should be further than a three minute walk, and the circle thing through downtown is a bit much when the entire east and west side of Miami has zero train options and a garbage bus system. They could have spaced the stations out, did away with the city loop, extend this thing south a little, north a little, and two areas to the west, and put in a link with Miami Beach.

I understand. Orlando Made the same Mistake with the Lymmo. although it was successful I can't really call it a mistake but the stations are so close together, it's far too many stops to be efficient downtown.

I've been to downtown Miami. people seem to use them frequently.

[crazynip]

Our lovely governor DICK Scott is only in favor of rail when he can repay his buddies who contribute to his campaign (IE: CSX)...

[Mike1306]

Originally Posted by tonyff67

It's funny, I have never met anyone from a city with good mass transit that is against a rail system. It seems to be people that have never experienced a good mass transit system that are against.

I used to take a bus and 2 trains to get to work when I lived in NY. It took me 1 1/2 hrs to get to work downtown. About an hour if I sprang for the extra cash for the express bus but then I would have to walk across town which would still make it almost 1 1/2 hours.
I know people who's commute is even longer up there.

I now drive to work, park for free and it takes me 30 minutes. It used to take me about 5 minutes before I changed jobs.

I wouldn't mind a transit system that was economically feasible but we don't need another taxpayer funded one. If mass transit was profitable then there would be private companies jumping in and doing the whole bit themselves. Amtrak costs taxpayers $1.5 billion a year. We don't need more of that.