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I think a lot of people get really bent out of shape at the suggestion that they're doing something that is not frugal, even when they clearly are. I think this stems from a misapprehension that "frugal" is equivalent to "good" or worse, that "good" is equivalent to "frugal". The reality is that frugality is just one quality of decisions. The frugal decision being always the best decision indicates an absolute primacy of money over all other considerations in life, and life for most people involves far more than money. There are times when the balancing of priorities results in a decision that is not the most frugal decision. For example, organic food satisfies priorities such as superior taste (perhaps), health (perhaps), and social conscience, and someone may value the combination of those benefits higher than making the most frugal decision for serving the basic need of sustenance.
See, I've gotten the same results from the opposite approach - I haven't had the flu since sometime in the 80's, haven't really been sick at all - aside from my non-existent thyroid that I inherited from my dad. I eat pretty much anything cheap that tastes good, plus, I work in a business where I deal with hundreds of people face-to-face every week, so I get plenty of germ exposure on a regular basis.
I grow my own eggs from my illegal city hens (I call them Norwegian Ground Parrots), but other than that, I buy food based on what it costs and if I like to eat it or not.
I think there is probably some long term effects from eating cheap, GMO foods and the like, but I only have so much money to spend on food and I can't go hungry today worrying about the tumor that my cheap food may or may not give me 20 years from now.
You sound a lot like my MIL. She too has pretty much claimed that because she eats on a fixed income, her food choices are limited to what's cheap. For the most part, that has worked for her. But, she has had problems controlling her blood pressure and had knee pain for years and yet, while she has been staying with us for the past month, she can't believe how much her BP has plummeted and how her knees no longer hurt. I think some of it is because she enjoys the company , but I suspect that a good portion of it is due to the quality of food she is eating.
And believe me, there is no guarantee that just because an individual eats organic, unprocessed, fair-trade, non-gmo, locally grown food that in any way implies a disease free life. That is more of a genetic predisposition which could be exacerbated by food which was my experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmyk72
With Frugality in mind, I believe that eating MORE fruits and vegetables is better for health than spending the same limited pot of money on pricier Organic produce.
Also, I think it's safe to eat the non-organic version of produce that have a thick skin that gets removed - like bananas, avocado, oranges, grapefruits, etc. Just wash the skin, peel it off, and eat.
Agreed. Although I'm more partial to organic, I will purchase non-organic versions of fruits and vegetables based on whats available. Washing, soaking, peeling all play a role, but I wholeheartedly agree that eating more of those items instead of cheaply produced processed food but since most undesirable residues find longevity in muscle tissue and (especially) fat, I don't usually compromise on proteins (beef, chicken, pork) or fat (butter, milk). This is the main reason why I don't choose to eat in restaurants unless I'm forced to. Yeah...I'm a downer .
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU
I think a lot of people get really bent out of shape at the suggestion that they're doing something that is not frugal, even when they clearly are. I think this stems from a misapprehension that "frugal" is equivalent to "good" or worse, that "good" is equivalent to "frugal". The reality is that frugality is just one quality of decisions. The frugal decision being always the best decision indicates an absolute primacy of money over all other considerations in life, and life for most people involves far more than money. There are times when the balancing of priorities results in a decision that is not the most frugal decision. For example, organic food satisfies priorities such as superior taste (perhaps), health (perhaps), and social conscience, and someone may value the combination of those benefits higher than making the most frugal decision for serving the basic need of sustenance.
Excellent point! Frugal for me is probably what is not frugal for most people, but my circumstances are much different than most I suspect, so it's more about what works for me and how I define frugal. Yes...it's SO much more than money for sure
Whole Foods and my local produce store have some very cheap organic produce (yes, I said Whole Foods). WF has the cheapest organic spinach I've seen anywhere - and it's cheaper than conventional spinach at the "cheaper" grocery stores. Their 20 oz 365 brand of organic spinach is $6.99, which is great considering how good it is for you! Spinach is one of those foods that's listed as having the most pesticides, so I figure it can't hurt to buy the organic variety. I'm not gungho organic, but I figure it can't hurt. WF's organic 365 carrots are also cheaper than anything else I can find, including conventional carrots. If you're up for shopping around instead of purchasing all your food in one place, you can find some excellent prices for organic (and non-organic) foods - it just takes patience and time. Surprisingly, I've seen multiple organic items that are cheaper at WF than at Trader Joe's or other regular grocery stores, so that says something. Of course, there are a million other things that are much higher priced at WF.
I wonder what makes a bigger difference in health outcomes... eating organic foods or chronic stress from deciding whether or not to buy organic foods?
In seriousness, you will have to made the decision based on your own set of circumstances and principles.
I'm generally frugal... and this year I'm being extremely frugal in certain contexts... for example, I am about 6 weeks into a "spend-free on me" year (I blogged here about it a few weeks ago). I'm super excited because they're going to open up a thrift shop nearby this weekend and I got a voucher for $5 worth of free merchandise, no purchase necessary.. woot!
That said, an hour ago I just paid $358 for 70lbs of beef. Local beef. I buy 1 chicken each month and she runs me about $16-20... but I know what she ate, where she lived and how she slept. Similar story with my eggs, my milk, y yogurt...that kinda stuff is important to me. I pay to support the what I believe in.
Knowing a few organic farmers and the hoops I have to jump through to keep their produce organic, I have a hard time believing anywhere close to 40% of authentically labeled organic food isn't organic.
"Authentically" being the key word here.
The fine for selling non-organic under the organic label is about $11,000, not worth the risk it if you are a small operation, but if you are one of those huuuuuge corporate farms, it's chump change for being able to charge 4x more than standard produce.
A couple of years ago some blueberry outfit that supplied Walmart was found to be using child labor down to around age 4, if that is the kind of mentality you're dealing with, do you really think they would have a problem with lying about produce being organic?
And some of the crap food labeled organic, like organic ChipsAhoy or Oreos are so much healthier?
The fine is $11,000 per offense. If the enforcement agencies weren't subjected to political pressure that makes most regulation that benefits consumers impotent, the fine would hurt huge farms as much as it hits small farms.
Also, to the extent that organic food is healthier, organic ChipsAhoy or Oreos are that much healthier than non-organic ChipsAhoy or Oreos. Also, remember, a major selling point for organic is how much healthy it is for the environment, how much less damage it causes, how much more it supports sustainability, etc.
I wonder what makes a bigger difference in health outcomes... eating organic foods or chronic stress from deciding whether or not to buy organic foods?
In seriousness, you will have to made the decision based on your own set of circumstances and principles.
I'm generally frugal... and this year I'm being extremely frugal in certain contexts... for example, I am about 6 weeks into a "spend-free on me" year (I blogged here about it a few weeks ago). I'm super excited because they're going to open up a thrift shop nearby this weekend and I got a voucher for $5 worth of free merchandise, no purchase necessary.. woot!
That said, an hour ago I just paid $358 for 70lbs of beef. Local beef. I buy 1 chicken each month and she runs me about $16-20... but I know what she ate, where she lived and how she slept. Similar story with my eggs, my milk, y yogurt...that kinda stuff is important to me. I pay to support the what I believe in.
I live in a poor neighborhood, and frankly, it's more the issue to get poorer people to eat produce rather than processed. Organic vs non organic isn't even the issue here.
Processed is much cheaper than stuff you have to make, if you don't have the know how to finish off the "ingredients".
I usually don't buy organic due to the higher cost. I will buy from local farmers at farmers markets and belonged to an urban ag CSA last year, but not sure if this was "organic" or more "local"...which is sort of a different thing, and not really a pragmatic cost-based decision, more a desire to support localist things....
I live in a poor neighborhood, and frankly, it's more the issue to get poorer people to eat produce rather than processed. Organic vs non organic isn't even the issue here.
Processed is much cheaper than stuff you have to make, if you don't have the know how to finish off the "ingredients".
Poor neighborhoods tend to be what they call "food deserts" where good, quality ingredients aren't available at all, much less affordable or diverse. Added to the lack of availability is a population that lacks the education to prepare the said ingredients even if they were both available and affordable. Chicken and egg issue. Processed foods are easy, they're tasty and cheap... but they're expensive when it comes to both human and ecological health, which unfortunately, only slowly becomes visible after many, many years and after habits of consumption have crystalized.
I still disagree that processed is much cheaper than the stuff you can make at home, but you have to have the education in order to know how to make it sustainably cheaper. It can get very boring. It can get very technical and overwhelming. It can also be time consuming.. and if you're already working two jobs and you've got kids and stress.... well, the odds are against you.
Organic vs non-organic is unfortunately, often something "1st world people" get to stress out over, even though it should be something that everyone can do.
This is why I love the idea of teaching people to garden... start their own or participate in urban community garden. It's a very fullfilling hobby and it can be resourceful and educational.
Poor neighborhoods tend to be what they call "food deserts" where good, quality ingredients aren't available at all, much less affordable or diverse. Added to the lack of availability is a population that lacks the education to prepare the said ingredients even if they were both available and affordable. Chicken and egg issue. Processed foods are easy, they're tasty and cheap... but they're expensive when it comes to both human and ecological health, which unfortunately, only slowly becomes visible after many, many years and after habits of consumption have crystalized.
I still disagree that processed is much cheaper than the stuff you can make at home, but you have to have the education in order to know how to make it sustainably cheaper. It can get very boring. It can get very technical and overwhelming. It can also be time consuming.. and if you're already working two jobs and you've got kids and stress.... well, the odds are against you.
Organic vs non-organic is unfortunately, often something "1st world people" get to stress out over, even though it should be something that everyone can do.
This is why I love the idea of teaching people to garden... start their own or participate in urban community garden. It's a very fullfilling hobby and it can be resourceful and educational.
We agree. I find amazing when I find out people no longer have flour and eggs in their kitchens, but cola and chips? Got them.
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, but I suspect that a good portion of it is due to the quality of food she is eating. 
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