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I didn't do poorly in highschool because of lack of skills or that my parents weren't high achievers. Just the opposite. My parents both have university degrees. I used to do well with little effort and each year I tried a little harder, but towards highschool the level of increasing difficulty outpaced the rate of change that I imagined or expected. My english skills before highschool were approximately the same as they are now, and I also did well in maths and sciences.
Unfortunately, I usually only tried as hard as it looked like most other students were doing. Our schools are no joke, towards the end of highschool we'd be taking four courses per semester and most of them required about one hour of homework per night.
Where I live you would not be able to pass even 3rd grade without basic literacy and arthimetic skills. Few people didn't pass, there was probably extra help available (I don't know, didn't need it) and usually it was either from being hospitalized and missing a lot of class or someone being a real underachiever to come close to failing 3rd grade.
Okay, this is an VERY interesting topic. LOVE IT!!! And glad that we are able to communicate our different views and what it looks like from where we sit.
Healthcare: NO, I do NOT want a universal healthcare system. YIKES!!! Now, this does help in the fact that it might make our govt leaders get off their duffs and do something about the rates going thru the roof if they are then forced to use and pay the same thing we do. MidniteBreeze, unlike your coverage we do get policies that are low out of pocket expenses for our employees. That means to go to the doctor it only costs them $25. Period. No deductible for that to be met at all. Drugs, covered. We true to find one that has decent rates (we have a child w/ asthma that is on many drugs so this helps us out too. So we TOTALLY see where they come from on the $ for drugs). Ours even has a mail order that you get 3 months at a time for what 2 months costs. It's that old prevantitive thing again. Take care of yourself and when something starts to creep up snip it in the bud. Otherwise it will take more money in the long run and take longer to get over.
Good employers vs. bad employers: I've worked for a few of those bad ones and know that we are not "bad". The only reason we lost our good people is they got hired away and lured w/ more money to go to someone else, their spouse had a job transfer or they retired. The only ones that leave w/ us helping them out the door are the ones that I described earlier (they don't know how to work and such). Those are not long term employees. We know from experience ourselves that if we treat them right and make sure that things are done to make their job safe and such that they will like their job. We have had ones that have left even for more money and end up coming back. The grass is NOT always greener on the other side. We've helped them out when needed even financially w/o wanting anything back in return. Look at it more as one of those things that you help out those in need if you can no matter what. No long overtime required but we do get the occassional time that we or rather a customer is in dire need and someone has to take care of them. We've been lucky that we have a good bunch that will if we can not personally. Yet every now and then you will have one that will grumble and carry on because they got asked if they could do something that would take a few minutes while they were still there. Um, you know what? My phone rang last night at 2 in the morning. My husband had to get up, come up here, get something and take it to a customer for an emergency. Or, my phone rang at midnight or something and it was the alarm company and the police calling because someone had tried to break in or had. He spent the entire night up here answering that call, cleaning up the mess, repairing whatever needed to be done, etc. Went home at 5 or 6, took a shower then came back up here and put in a full 10 hours or more.
Well, I think all of ya got where I come from on that by now. Sorry.
It just gets aggravating. Aggravating to read in the paper people saying these sad stories that they can not find work if they do live in this city. I know of plenty of jobs. But it is a JOB. They will expect you to be there. They will expect you to actually do some work. That and the sheer number of apps we get that don't even bother to read the requirements that they MUST have to get the job. DUH!!! You just want to hit yourself or them over the head w/ a cast iron skillet sometimes.
Universal healthcare would make our health care system as bad as our public school system. Which is pure awful. No offense to teachers but I know many up here and they basically cannot get fired. Once you have basic tenure in a public school system it takes about 7 years to fire one after you go through the entire system of checks and balances and who is going to pursue that. Second, you don't reward good teachers versus bad... the system is set up so for the most part you are paid on tenure. So there is no rewarding good people for doing 'extra' or being 'better' as just about any other capitalistic instrument. If you stink and run your own business you are out of business soon. If you stink and are in a corporation you usually are found out soon enough and get fired. If not, and your company doesnt fire you and is full of incompetents it usually goes out of business soon enough. None of this happens in public school systems... there are GREAT teachers who are treated/paid no differently than AVERAGE or POOR. There are GREAT schools who get the same money as the POOR schools. And I dont mean teach to tests makes great teachers... we all know from experience when we had a great teacher and we also know how few and far between they are. There is no incentive system in our schools to make people "outperform" so right now only the truly self motivated teachers/administrators become great - the rest know they can be poor to average and get the same pay/benefits and human nature in many has them to the least amount possible.
So if you go to universal health you are going to get many of the same issues. Why do you think there are no serious hospital rankings? Or statistics on how "good" a hospital is... it is very arbitrary and most is based on reptuation and word of mouth. We have rankings for almost every business but not health care facilities. Full blown studies are hard to find as hospitals fight this and many don't even have the data internally on their mistakes, success rates - there was a whole story on this on one of those TV shows, 20/20, Dateline etc. So no matter the performance of doctors/nurses/hospitals they get paid big sums, and pretty much similar from a bad hosptital to a good one. It would only exaggerate the current problems if you go to universal health, unless the structure of the system is revamped to reward the good and punish the bad. That said, those poor people working our ERs are GROSSLY underpaid - our 40% of the nation uninsured now go to ER rooms because most ER rooms don't turn away people uninsured, so they are flooding our ER rooms for basic services like sprained ankles taking services away from people who have true life threatening trauma.
So if we had a system where there was accurate and fair rankings and statistics of the hospitals, people would take their "business" to the best, and the poor ones would lose business, either forcing them to drop rates (which wuold happen in a true capitalist system) or get better. The insurance business also preys on this system too, but thats another 50 paragraph thread. It is a broken system but too many big pocket interests have a big interest in keeping it the way it is. Until our social system starts crumbling (I guess 40% of people who don't have medical insurance is not enough to matter to our fearless leaders), then it won't change. Maybe it needs to be 70% of people. Or when only politicians and people making > $150K have health care the masses will really say what the hell is going on with our country - give it a decade.
Also you are right, the politicians have a great health insurance system... incredible. So none of this affects them. Just like the Iraq war doesnt affect them, only 1 congressman has a child who is in the armed forces - so its a lot easy to "vote" for actions that don't affect you directly. Even Hurricane Katrina, one of the senators had his house in Missippi wiped out and the insurance company wouldnt repay him because it was FLOOD damage insted of WIND damage (he had hurricane insurance not flood insurance) so if he was a normal American he would be screwed like most of those poor people, but since he was a Senator they took care of him quietely once he raised a fuss about this wind vs flood damage situation. I forgot the guys name, but hey its America - money and power can fix anything. The avergae guy? You are on your own- just go survive - your main asset is wiped out because you bought insurance that we deemed to be incorrect since we as insurers don't want to take a big financial hit (and we contribute a lot to the politicians so they won't come after us) - so pick up yourself by your bootstraps, and just start over at age 50-55 with all your home equity gone.
All I know is that my family cannot afford decent health insurance for a family of 6, not an individual policy or one through the employer we just cannot afford 600.00 a month, government needs to do something. Yea that'll happen!!lol
Someone was asking about what would universal health care be like. It would all depend on what the tax payers and government put into it. In Canada, many provinces have "mediocre health care for all." By this I mean people often are put on waiting lists and have to wait months for things like non-life-threatening surgeries. Doctors here get paid by billing some department of the government. In my province and perhaps most of Canada, there is a salary cap for doctors. That means that after they see X-number of patients, or earn X-amount of dollars in a year, any extra work they do they can not be paid for.
Typical doctors salaries are lower in Canada as well. Mind you, they still get excellent pay compared to most other people. I imagine most doctors make 150-200k plus a year here while an average income would be between 45-75k in this province. (I live in a nice upper middle class neighbourhood and some of our neighbours are doctors.) But I hear that in the U.S. many doctors make closer to a half million a year. So we have lost quite a few doctors, especially specialists to much better paying American positions.
On the other hand I've heard great things about the Danish public health care system. My mom lived there for a few months when she was younger and needed surgery. She didn't have to wait very long and they even gave her some clean clothes while in the hospital. (sorry, don't remember the details) But they do pay a lot more tax over there than we do.
I know I'm not the first one to say this, but it's "funny" how the people who really do something that MATTERS (ER workers, childcare providers, teachers, etc.) make the lowest salaries (relative to others with similar levels of education, anyway) while spoiled-brat hollywood celebs and pro athletes rake in multi-million dollar contracts and endorsement deals. Sure, I like a good movie or baseball game as much as the next guy, but really. These people aren't curing cancer!
While my limited knowledge of economics tells me, logically, WHY this happens, the emotional "human" part of me can't help but ask if our priorities as a nation aren't a bit out of whack.
I know I'm not the first one to say this, but it's "funny" how the people who really do something that MATTERS (ER workers, childcare providers, teachers, etc.) make the lowest salaries (relative to others with similar levels of education, anyway) while spoiled-brat hollywood celebs and pro athletes rake in multi-million dollar contracts and endorsement deals. Sure, I like a good movie or baseball game as much as the next guy, but really. These people aren't curing cancer!
While my limited knowledge of economics tells me, logically, WHY this happens, the emotional "human" part of me can't help but ask if our priorities as a nation aren't a bit out of whack.
Totally agree! However, you forgot to add overpaid CEO's to the latter part of paragraph one above!
As someone who works in the educational field (I'm a HS counselor), I can concur with much of what you said. While most of the teachers and other school staff I've worked with are good people who really do care about kids and try to do a good job; (they definitely didn't go into the field for the money!) I have known more than a few teachers who are just plain burned out, sitting there at the top of the pay scale doing the bare minimum while they count down the days until retirement.
It can certainly be a thanless job...you deal with undiciplined kids, litigation-happy parents, overstressed administrators, inadequate facilities and materials, pressure from the state to boost test scores...the list goes on and on. And when you factor in the relatively low salaries (most other people with masters degrees working outside the educational/human services field make a LOT more than I do) and the fact that no, there is no incentive (at least not immediately tangible) for "going the extra mile", then yes, it's easy to see why the system is failing.
This is not to say that bad teachers should be held blameless and that it's all "the system's" fault, but I think you understand my point.
On the other hand, I'm not sure that "free market" for-profit schools are the answer either. I worked for a "for profit" charter school for three years and they just cut too many corners trying to boost their bottom line. (i.e., only one copier for an entire middle school, inadequate heating/cooling, overcrowding of classrooms, old, outdated text books...in essence, they had the SAME problems the public schools do, only they were trying to make MONEY!) The one thing that REALLY turned me off to the whole idea was when the big wig stockholders came to town, they put them up at a 5-STAR hotel, wined and dined them, etc. etc. At the same time, they would send the lowly teachers to trainings in places like Phoenix in the summer and put them up in un-airconditioned dorm rooms! Again, where are our priorities? Certainly not with the teachers and certainly not with the kids.
Though I will say the one thing they DID get right is merit-based pay, bonuses, stock options, etc. But even so, they still lost a lot of good people due to the things mentioned above.
Okay, done ranting for another night
Last edited by MidniteBreeze; 09-16-2006 at 07:28 PM..
I know I'm not the first one to say this, but it's "funny" how the people who really do something that MATTERS (ER workers, childcare providers, teachers, etc.) make the lowest salaries (relative to others with similar levels of education, anyway) while spoiled-brat hollywood celebs and pro athletes rake in multi-million dollar contracts and endorsement deals. Sure, I like a good movie or baseball game as much as the next guy, but really. These people aren't curing cancer!
While my limited knowledge of economics tells me, logically, WHY this happens, the emotional "human" part of me can't help but ask if our priorities as a nation aren't a bit out of whack.
You are right, a career like teaching should be prestigious and high paying and then it would attract more talent. In other countries teachers are adored - here, it is a tough job in terms of pay and some conditions (but hey you never get fired so there is a bonus to it). You can't discipline kids since you will get sued, and basically in many schools its basically babysitting.
As for why athletes and hollywood types get paid, its all about supply and demand. There are only so many humans who can hit a 98 mph fastball, and run 4.4 with 20 lbs of padding on while 11 men on the opposing team try to tear you to shreds, etc. So those that excel at these things get paid big bucks because there are so few of them. Or if you can guarantee to bring in butts to the seats in a movie theater and bring riches to the movie studios you get paid too, only so many people on this planet people will pay $8-9 ticket to go see.
If people didnt fill stadiums and movie theaters it wouldnt be a high paying field. Simple as that.
As someone who works in the educational field (I'm a HS counselor), I can concur with much of what you said. While most of the teachers and other school staff I've worked with are good people who really do care about kids and try to do a good job; (they definitely didn't go into the field for the money!) I have known more than a few teachers who are just plain burned out, sitting there at the top of the pay scale doing the bare minimum while they count down the days until retirement.
It can certainly be a thanless job...you deal with undiciplined kids, litigation-happy parents, overstressed administrators, inadequate facilities and materials, pressure from the state to boost test scores...the list goes on and on. And when you factor in the relatively low salaries (most other people with masters degrees working outside the educational/human services field make a LOT more than I do) and the fact that no, there is no incentive (at least not immediately tangible) for "going the extra mile", then yes, it's easy to see why the system is failing.
This is not to say that bad teachers should be held blameless and that it's all "the system's" fault, but I think you understand my point.
On the other hand, I'm not sure that "free market" for-profit schools are the answer either. I worked for a "for profit" charter school for three years and they just cut too many corners trying to boost their bottom line. (i.e., only one copier for an entire middle school, inadequate heating/cooling, overcrowding of classrooms, old, outdated text books...in essence, they had the SAME problems the public schools do, only they were trying to make MONEY!) The one thing that REALLY turned me off to the whole idea was when the big wig stockholders came to town, they put them up at a 5-STAR hotel, wined and dined them, etc. etc. At the same time, they would send the lowly teachers to trainings in places like Phoenix in the summer and put them up in un-airconditioned dorm rooms! Again, where are our priorities? Certainly not with the teachers and certainly not with the kids.
Though I will say the one thing they DID get right is merit-based pay, bonuses, stock options, etc. But even so, they still lost a lot of good people due to the things mentioned above.
Okay, done ranting for another night
Are all the free market schools 'for profit'? I know the answer would be, "who would run one if there was no profit incentive" but a very well run school system could be had where the exact amount of money went out the door as came in (hence no profit) but a much better system... there are 'experimental' schools across the countries (very small scale 5-6 schools here or there) where they are doing such things but its a pebble in the ocean. I agree you need to create providing financial incentive... even those with 20 years in the system, why shouldnt they be able to make up to 80-90K instead of topping out at 65K if they are truly the best in their field? And let the entry level be 35-40k, and if you are a poor teacher after 5 years of evaluation and "learning on the job" you hit the door. Average teachers with 20 years of service, you get your 55k or whatnot. The problem is its very subjective what makes a good teacher and if they just use test scores, teachers just teach to the test.
These schools that seem to be working are very integrated with parents and teachers working together - and as you say, in most parts of the country and most school systems this is just not how things are unfortunately. Its tough - but the system is broken - hopefully at the local level there is some grassroots solutions and out of the box ideas - anything national in scope will just be "everyone should get this test score" to be a good teacher or good school and then you just teach the tests not critical thinking.
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are the ones that I described earlier (they don't know how to work and such). Those are not long term employees. We know from experience ourselves that if we treat them right and make sure that things are done to make their job safe and such that they will like their job. We have had ones that have left even for more money and end up coming back. The grass is NOT always greener on the other side. We've helped them out when needed even financially w/o wanting anything back in return. Look at it more as one of those things that you help out those in need if you can no matter what. No long overtime required but we do get the occassional time that we or rather a customer is in dire need and someone has to take care of them. We've been lucky that we have a good bunch that will if we can not personally. Yet every now and then you will have one that will grumble and carry on because they got asked if they could do something that would take a few minutes while they were still there. Um, you know what? My phone rang last night at 2 in the morning. My husband had to get up, come up here, get something and take it to a customer for an emergency. Or, my phone rang at midnight or something and it was the alarm company and the police calling because someone had tried to break in or had. He spent the entire night up here answering that call, cleaning up the mess, repairing whatever needed to be done, etc. Went home at 5 or 6, took a shower then came back up here and put in a full 10 hours or more. 
Sorry.
CEO's
