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Yea, but PA isn't wihout Philadelphia or it's suburban counties. Or any one of the 1/3 of the counties that went Blue.
Just like OR isn't without Portland, WA without Seattle, CO without Denver, and on, and on, and on.
True, but the point I'm trying to say is that in the Northeast, New England votes Democratic for a different reason than the Mid-Atlantic does.
New England votes Democratic because the majority of everyone is Democratic. Rural and urban. White black and brown. So even though the states themselves are fairly heavily white, and don't have big cities (outside of Boston), they are all now all D-leaning to solid D.
In contrast, the Mid-Atlantic votes Democratic because of the urban areas and the high level of minorities. White voters as a whole are actually somewhat Republican-leaning in New York outside of NYC, New Jersey (outside of some pockets of South Jersey), Pennsylvania, and Maryland. There still is a pretty strong Republican base, but it's not significant enough to actually take power often. Which is more similar to what you see in most of the Democratic-leaning states outside of New England (except for Hawaii which is another "everyone's a Democrat" state - although being majority Asian helps too).
From your comments on the New England accent, you sound unfamiliar. Surely your in-laws don't r-drop?
The mother, who was born in Boston, does. The father, born in Springfield, doesn't, nor does my son-in-law or his brother. In fact, the kids don't have much of an accent at all. It's more certain words.
Argue with the maps posted, I think they know what they're talking about. I haven't spent much time, but hearing speakers from the Midwest, I can notice a distinct accent from many from the northern Midwest (Great Lakes Region). The rest, or Lower Midwest, doesn't have that sound.
I wasn't arguing that. It's complicated.
No, Victorian refers to an architectural era not a single style.
Well, fine. According to this link, it means mid to late 19th century. Despite what the OP thinks, most midwestern cities were up and running by then, all the large ones actually, and will have examples of Victorian-ERA architecture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victorian_architecture
Check voting maps. The Cincinnati metro as a whole is much more republican than the Cleveland one. Columbus is a bit of an outlier with its colleges and a state capital. Some rural areas in Michigan, Iowa, Wisconsin and Minnesota vote democrat or split about 50-50, less common further south in the Midwest. Ditto with metros of north vs south.
Republican does not equate to "right wing". I've lived in central Illinois. I walked the walk, not just for a week, but for seven years. I have a lot of experience with Nebraska. I've been there at least once a year for the past 33. My Wisconsin relatives are very conservative, one could easily say "right wing".
Mine in teal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradjl2009
I hear plenty of Pittsburghers say jimmies.
Well, fine. I grew up there, and never heard the term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan
Being a professional linguist vs. someone who has had a life-long interest in linguistics is like a major league baseball player vs. a diehard fan. Not even close to a comparison. I will take the opinions of the University of Pennsylvania's study of linguistics over your's any day of the week. Talk about laughing out loud? When I hear somebody say that Kansas Citians speak with a Southern accent, it makes me want to do just that.
You know, I was going to let this whole thing about KC drop, until you edited your post to say that 50% of Illinoisans, Indianans, and Ohioans talk like the people from KC. You can look through my posts. I said "sound southern to me". The people in the very southern counties of Illinois and Indiana sound southern too, but not half the state. You yourself said "southern elements" or some such.
I have seen linguistic maps posted here on CD that don't even acknowledge the unique accents of Pittsburgh and St. Louis. Just b/c it comes from some university, that doesn't mean it's error free.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton
Downstate is. Anyone whose lived in Illinois will tell you that people from Chicago, Springfield, or say Carbondale/Cairo will tell you there are deep political and cultural divisions between upstate and downstate - so much so that people downstate talk about seceding from time to time. They wouldn't, given Chicagoland actually transfers money downstate, but as you travel north to south, you pass from Interior North dialect areas in Chicagoland, through Midland accents in the center of the state, and finally areas with distinct southern twangs in the far southern portions.
Oh, that's bunk. In the seven years I lived in downstate Illinois, seven more than you did I will add, I never heard of any secession movement. There are no "deep divisions" as you may have read about. Culturally, most of out-state Illinois (including the northern rural areas as well) is agricultural, and Chicago is more industrial/business based.
On the whole, it's not right wing. But rural central PA is more right wing than anywhere else in the Northeast, which sort of belies the whole "Northeast is liberal" as a definitive thing. PA votes Democratic because of Philadelphia, and would be an evenly-balanced (if not Republican-leaning) state without it. Michigan and Illinois both are generally more left-leaning than Illinois on a presidential level now, although PA's political balance is similar to Wisconsin, Minnesota, or Iowa. But unlike those states, it's not because there's a fairly significant white liberal population - it's because there's a fairly high number of minorities.
I don't think central PA is "right-wing". Nor do I find WI, MN, and IA all that "liberal". All three have elected a number of conservative politicians over the years, e.g. Jesse Ventura. My family in Wisconsin is quite conservative.
Correct historically, but now? Show me liberal Republican parts of the country.
Colorado has long been "purple", despite what you and Nate Silver happen to think.
Mine in teal.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 04-17-2013 at 08:23 AM..
Reason: Add link.
Republican does not equate to "right wing". I've lived in central Illinois. I walked the walk, not just for a week, but for seven years. I have a lot of experience with Nebraska. I've been there at least once a year for the past 33. My Wisconsin relatives are very conservative, one could easily say "right wing".
Well more republican voting = more conservative. Whether it's right-wing or not depends on your point of view. A few decades ago, the difference was less strong, but these days conservative correlates with Republican. Sure, you may say it does not feel "right-wing" but going by voting % difference, the contrast is large between some regions mentioned.
Quote:
The mother, who was born in Boston, does. The father, born in Springfield, doesn't, nor does my son-in-law or his brother. In fact, the kids don't have much of an accent at all. It's more certain words.
That doesn't surprise me.
As per Colorado, not to sidetrack the thread, but while it may have been purple for a while, in the 90s it was somewhat more republican voting in presidential elections, it had a significant republican lean. The last two elections it was almost exactly around the national average; I don't think Nate Silver said anything different.
Quote:
Well, fine. According to this link, it means mid to late 19th century. Despite what the OP thinks, most midwestern cities were up and running by then, all the large ones actually, and will have examples of Victorian-ERA architecture.
I think the question is: was victorian era architecture in the Midwest significantly different from the Northeast? [I'd say yes, but I don't have a very confident answer] And I'm referring to more average buildings rather than local standouts.
That doesn't surprise me.
As per Colorado, not to sidetrack the thread, but while it may have been purple for a while, in the 90s it was somewhat more republican voting in presidential elections, it had a significant republican lean. The last two elections it was almost exactly around the national average; I don't think Nate Silver said anything different.
I think the question is: was victorian era architecture in the Midwest significantly different from the Northeast? [I'd say yes, but I don't have a very confident answer] And I'm referring to more average buildings rather than local standouts.
I have posted, several times over, probably at least a half dozen time actually, about Colorado's voting history over the 33 years I have lived there. You can do a search on the Pittsburgh forum for some of the most complete stuff I wrote about this. The local press thought Silver was a little off-base. We've had Democratic governors, senators, representatives, etc over those years. Remember Gary Hart and Pat Schroeder? (You're probably too young, LOL.) Both ran for president.
In fact, in only 8 of those 33 years was there a Republican governor, Bill Owens. Presidential, yeah, Colorado hasn't gone Dem too often.
The only architectural difference I ever saw in the NE was those 4 story or so buildings in the old mill towns in CT. I had never seen anything like that before I visited there. Not in Pittsburgh or anywhere else in PA, MD, DE or VA for that matter.
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 5,094,873 times
Reputation: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
Mine in teal.
Well, fine. I grew up there, and never heard the term.
You know, I was going to let this whole thing about KC drop, until you edited your post to say that 50% of Illinoisans, Indianans, and Ohioans talk like the people from KC. You can look through my posts. I said "sound southern to me". The people in the very southern counties of Illinois and Indiana sound southern too, but not half the state. You yourself said "southern elements" or some such.
I have seen linguistic maps posted here on CD that don't even acknowledge the unique accents of Pittsburgh and St. Louis. Just b/c it comes from some university, that doesn't mean it's error free.
Kansas City does not sound like Southern Indiana. I'm sorry, but that is just not true. Larry Bird does not sound like anybody i have ever talked to or met from KC. Anybody that thinks KC sounds like that has never been there...plain and simple. If you do, you probably think New Yorkers sound like people from Mississippi.
So in other words, you are above professional linguists. This dialect study is the most widely accepted of its kind, so if it is error-free it is not by much. And as far as the very southern-most counties of these states? Southern-influenced speech patterns, or South Midland dialect, extends far to the north of the southern boundaries of these lines. Dialect maps confirm this, and they also place Kansas City firmly in the area of Northern dialect. Kansas City does not sound like Cairo, Illinois. I'm down here right now, and if you think you're right, you're wrong. Just admit you're not a professional linguist and there's the possibility you could be wrong. It would save us all a great deal of trouble. Given how self-righteous people on this website are, I'd expect you to defend your viewpoint to the dying breath, even if it means confronting hundreds of dialect maps which prove you to be wrong. There is one pin-pen merger map that places both Kansas City and Indianapolis in the same region. Other than that, they are firmly in South Midland, not Southern, dialect. I'll trust the experts over my ears anyday, as I'm not a professional in this area. I suggest you do the same.
I have posted, several times over, probably at least a half dozen time actually, about Colorado's voting history over the 33 years I have lived there. You can do a search on the Pittsburgh forum for some of the most complete stuff I wrote about this. The local press thought Silver was a little off-base. We've had Democratic governors, senators, representatives, etc over those years. Remember Gary Hart and Pat Schroeder? (You're probably too young, LOL.) Both ran for president.
In fact, in only 8 of those 33 years was there a Republican governor, Bill Owens. Presidential, yeah, Colorado hasn't gone Dem too often.
Sure, local candidates. Local candiddates may run different ideologically by region. Massachusetts has had a number of republican governors, but that doesn't mean it's a Democratic state overall. I was going by just presidential election results as they are uniform nationwide.
Quote:
The only architectural difference I ever saw in the NE was those 4 story or so buildings in the old mill towns in CT. I had never seen anything like that before I visited there. Not in Pittsburgh or anywhere else in PA, MD, DE or VA for that matter.
I assume you triple-deckers? Yes, those are specifcially New England form. My town has a few, but they're not that common in Western MA, more Eastern New England and a few parts of CT. Otherwise, the proportion of building types may vary [perhaps my comment about stripless sidewalks being common in old neighborhoods is a difference?]. I suspect you'd have trouble finding a street like this anywhere in the Midwest except maybe Chicago:
anyhow, everywhere here is going by human geography rather than natural geography. Why? The landscape makes a big difference. Where it shifts from forest to prairie makes a big difference as does where you get long stretches of little but cornfields and amber waves of grain. What about weather-wise? Would spending a year in the Midwest be drastically different from the Northeast? I looked through some data and my finding was no. East of Lake Michigan or so, the differences were rather small, with the Great Lakes region and some of Appalachia being a center of cloudiness.
Kansas City does not sound like Southern Indiana. I'm sorry, but that is just not true. Larry Bird does not sound like anybody i have ever talked to or met from KC. Anybody that thinks KC sounds like that has never been there...plain and simple. If you do, you probably think New Yorkers sound like people from Mississippi.
So in other words, you are above professional linguists. This dialect study is the most widely accepted of its kind, so if it is error-free it is not by much. And as far as the very southern-most counties of these states? Southern-influenced speech patterns, or South Midland dialect, extends far to the north of the southern boundaries of these lines. Dialect maps confirm this, and they also place Kansas City firmly in the area of Northern dialect. Kansas City does not sound like Cairo, Illinois. I'm down here right now, and if you think you're right, you're wrong. Just admit you're not a professional linguist and there's the possibility you could be wrong. It would save us all a great deal of trouble. Given how self-righteous people on this website are, I'd expect you to defend your viewpoint to the dying breath, even if it means confronting hundreds of dialect maps which prove you to be wrong. There is one pin-pen merger map that places both Kansas City and Indianapolis in the same region. Other than that, they are firmly in South Midland, not Southern, dialect. I'll trust the experts over my ears anyday, as I'm not a professional in this area. I suggest you do the same.
Twas not I, but you, who said people from southern Indiana, in fact, the southern half of Indiana, talk like people from KC. See below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlouisan
All of Kansas, 50% of Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio speak like Kansas City. That's not Southern.
Location: Jefferson City 4 days a week, St. Louis 3 days a week
2,709 posts, read 5,094,873 times
Reputation: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by garmin239
Regarding KC. Would would the accent be considered? Most people I have met from there seemed to have some southern twang in the way they spoke.
Again, South Midland. And whatever southern twang you and Katiana happen to be hearing, I can't fathom.
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