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I get where you're going with the sarcasm to prove a point.You obviously know that Philly is the Northeast, unequivocally, undoubtedly and unquestionably. Your sarcasm would hit harder if the city itself was actually located in DE but it's not. It's very obvious what Personone is alluding to and I agree. MD, DC, Northern VA, DE areas are technically the South (Via the Census and historical implications) but culturally transitional with a collision of Northern and Southern attributes. Northern VA, DC, MD, and DE comprises the core Mid-Atlantic and also could be called the South Mid-Atlantic to distinguish it from the North Mid-Atlantic (PA, NY, NJ which are the Northeast). NOVA, MD, DC, DE are not in the Northeast which is addresses the premise of this thread.
So a summary is NOVA, MD, DC, DE is..
Culturally- Transitional/neutral/grey area
Technically- South
So where's the line drawn again and which line do we use? Delaware is south you're saying?
So where's the line drawn again and which line do we use? Delaware is south you're saying?
The technical line is the Mason-Dixon + 12 mile circle. The cultural bonafide Southern line probably begins around Fredericksburg, VA maybe slightly south of it.
The technical line is the Mason-Dixon + 12 mile circle. The cultural bonafide Southern line probably begins around Fredericksburg, VA maybe slightly south of it.
I agree on the cultural line, I've changed my tune there. I'm just not sure why the Mason-Dixon is relevant? It was formed well before the states were.
You didn't provide any new information in this post. Literally, the only new information that you've brought to the whole topic is that the Census said that MD, DC, DE should've, could've been reassigned. Do you have anything to add to the topic, or is your sole purpose in this thread to disagree with everything I say?
That's because there's nothing new to add. I've made my argument concerning this topic in several threads over time, and it's simply easier to link to other sources which do a much better job of presenting the evidence.
Oklahoma more southern than Maryland? Ehh, seems more like a plains state to me.
I must say that I learned quite a bit about Oklahoma watching the documentary about the 1921 Greenwood massacre in Tulsa. This Smithsonian article is basically a prelude to the massacre, providing much background information about Oklahoma and how its admittance to the Union as a state served as a precursor for the devastation of Greenwood. A relevant excerpt:
On November 16, 1907, the president signed the proclamation turning Indian Territory and Oklahoma Territory into the 46th U.S. state, Oklahoma. Despite Roosevelt’s professed misgivings about admitting a state that discriminated against a portion of its citizens, the constitution itself enshrined the segregation of schools. With the president’s signature secured, state leaders moved aggressively to enact the rest of their Jim Crow agenda. The very first law passed by the state legislature segregated train cars. Next, the legislature passed the so-called “grandfather clause,” which circumvented federal voter rights protections by instituting a literacy test on any person whose ancestors had not been allowed to vote before 1866. Naturally, that included all descendants of slaves. Ultimately, the legislature would segregate nearly every aspect of public life—hospitals, cemeteries, even phone booths. Oklahoma’s formal and fully legalized racism was actually more rigid than that in much of the Deep South, where Jim Crow was sometimes upheld by custom and violence rather than legal mandate. In the South, segregation emerged from the vestiges of slavery and failed Reconstruction; in Oklahoma, it was erected statute by statute.
And Oklahoma is most definitely part of the Bible Belt, sometimes even referred to as its buckle.
There's also a portion of the state known as Little Dixie, the southeastern corner where the Gulf Coastal Plain encroaches upon it, and it used to dominate the state politically.
Granted, Oklahoma lies as the junction of more regions/subregions than Maryland does, but Oklahoma lacks a historically strong urbanizing dynamic that has pulled it in decidedly one regional direction over the others. Politically Oklahoma has become more conservative over time; no Democratic presidential candidate has won any county in the state since the 2004 election. So I can see why one might say Oklahoma is more Southern than Maryland.
I agree on the cultural line, I've changed my tune there. I'm just not sure why the Mason-Dixon is relevant? It was formed well before the states were.
It isn't relevant... has anyone who invokes it here on CD been able to offer a reason why it matters?
And how the Census Bureau chooses to tally its statistics doesn't address the cultural border either.
And that's really what everyone here is arguing about -- where is the cultural / sociological border?
That's because there's nothing new to add. I've made my argument concerning this topic in several threads over time, and it's simply easier to link to other sources which do a much better job of presenting the evidence.
Posting a link about what the Census "thought" about doing doesn't help your argument. You danced around demographics, climate, Culture, history (Jim crow, slavery, segregation ..etc) and anything that didn't help your argument.
Posting a link about what the Census "thought" about doing doesn't help your argument. You danced around demographics, climate, Culture, history (Jim crow, slavery, segregation ..etc) and anything that didn't help your argument.
Again, Maryland fits very well in a historical niche called Border States. It means it could go either way depending on what you choose to emphasize. Even if it is Southern to you, that doesn’t make it an ironclad Southern state just like Alabama is something. There are gradients to these things.
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