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I'm doing some research for my next move. My top priorities are to have good schools for my kids and to be in an urban environment. Are these two things mutually exclusive?
I'm not only looking at large cities - I like small and medium sized cities as well. But in every city I research, it seems like the really good schools are on the outskirts or in more suburban locations. The more walkable, urban parts of the city have poorly performing schools.
The only exceptions to this seem to be wildly expensive sections of some cities, which have a few great neighborhood schools if you can afford to live there.
I don't expect every school to be a winner, but I'm worried about moving somewhere that has a few good pockets of schools, and then not being able to find or afford a house in one of those select neighborhoods.
Can anyone think of any small, medium or large cities that have consistently good schools throughout, even in some of the more affordable urban areas?
I've posted about this extensively, so much so that I'll quote from myself rather than rewrite here...
Quote:
Schooling is basically a chicken and egg issue. Urban neighborhood schools are generally bad not for any intrinsic reason, such as worse teachers or less funding. They perform poorly because historically everyone who wasn't impoverished pulled their kids out of them and into other options (usually private schools or movement to suburban districts). The strongest correlations on test scores are related to race and socio-economic status, so a school which is majority black/latino and low income is almost invariably going to be "worse" than a school which is upper-middle class and white/Asian.
Urban parents have more options today than in the past, due to both the proliferation of magnet options and charter schools. I find charters dubious, but the magnet system has long been able to retain some high-performing students in urban settings - particularly in districts which have merit-based placement (like NYC) where it results in a "district within a district" with very different demographics and performance.
Still, the demand in many schools for these slots has gotten so fierce that many parents have not been able to place their kids into the alternate public system. As a result in many cities they have begun enrolling their kids in the neighborhood schools. These schools tended to be in neighborhoods which were already highly gentrified, where the neighborhood itself was majority white but the school enrollment was formerly very low, consisting of the residual low-income families who lived in the area. The smallish influx of middle-class students was enough to get the school's test scores to rise, which in turn rose the cache of the schools, and resulted in more middle-class parents choosing them as an option. If this cycle continues for another decade or two they'll probably be well-established schools with high middle-class enrollment soon enough.
Of course, cities vary dramatically in terms of their public school systems. Cities like Seattle and Portland were always seen as having pretty good public schools (as cities go). NYC has long been known for having an array of options as well. Chicago is developing the "district within a district" dynamic on the North Side right now. On the other hand, cities like Philadelphia and DC, outside of a small favored quarter, still have poorly regarded schools. It will take a critical mass in each city to turn things around, which may not happen everywhere.
Yes, Evanston is a good example. I am in Oak Park, IL now and it is similarly urban, but not as affordable as we would like. But we are looking to move out of the Chicago region for a variety of reasons. Any "urban suburbs" in other regions?
Yes, that's a good example. I am in Oak Park, IL now and it is similarly urban, but not as affordable as we would like. But we are looking to move out of the Chicago region for a variety of reasons. Any "urban suburbs" in other regions?
Because what makes a school top performing, generally speaking, is the kids of upper-middle class parents going there, any walkable urban area with superior neighborhood schools is going to by definition be expensive - at least for its region - as it was an area that upper-middle class people chose to locate due to the schools.
I wouldn't call Oak Park a particularly urban suburb. To me that's more something like Cambridge, MA (which does have good schools) or Hoboken, NJ (which doesn't). Areas dominated by rowhouses and apartments, not detached single-family homes. But if Oak Park is your guideline of urbanity, I'm sure you can find a streetcar suburban type neighborhood with decent schools somewhere.
Eschaton, you are right that Oak Park is not particularly urban. In fact, it had been sold to me (from a distance) as an "urban suburb" and I was quite disappointed when we moved there! With that said, it does have a nice walkable downtown area with a number of restaurant and shopping options and decent transit to downtown Chicago. Also, the population is quite diverse. Anyway, it's one of the more urban suburbs compared to much of Chicagoland.
I understand, somewhat, the history and issues facing urban schools. However, I'm not really looking for a discussion about how they got that way or how to improve them. What I really want to know is where are the good ones now - I know there must be some out there! You mentioned Seattle and Oregon and nightlysparrow gave me some LA options. Any others?
College towns come to mind immediately. Many small "cities" may have good schools as well. In NY State: Ithaca, Corning, Plattsburgh, Geneva, Saratoga Springs, Glens Falls and Oneonta, among others, come to mind. These are districts that are at least generally solid and with varying degrees of cultural diversity.
ckhthankgod, college towns are a great idea. I agree about the potential in small cities - I just don't know which ones to explore! Thanks for the New York ideas - those are excellent.
FWIW, about 40% of Oak Park residents live in multi-unit housing. Row houses are extremely rare in the Chicago metro, even within the densest parts of the city of Chicago. If you don't think Oak Park is urban enough, you're probably not going to find anything more urban unless you head eastward, and then of course the prices will tend to be significantly higher.
I'm a big fan of Brookline, a suburb of Boston. Its got stellar schools, good transit connections to Boston (except for this winter), and lovely housing stock. Of course, the price of housing is probably at least double compared to Oak Park.
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