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Old 05-17-2007, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Austin, TX
1,231 posts, read 3,448,194 times
Reputation: 396

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Quote:
Originally Posted by milquetoast View Post
Trenton, Jersey City, Newark-that's 3 million right there! So..for reasons of politics, money, that sort of thing..when we ask for your state's total population we'll just subtract 3 million unlessss... we can always count those heads..TWICE! See how that works?
Your posts aren't making any sense. It's a no-brainer to add together the MUCH more densely packed metros comprising NYC and come up with the largest SMSA in the nation, without double-counting. Where are you coming up with this strange conspiracy theory?

Los Angeles is huge, no doubt. But the geographical area and the barriers separating segments of that area, which you are lumping together in order to "prove" that LA is bigger than NY, seems driven by some kind of need to say LA is bigger rather than any logic. I don't know what your reasons are for wanting to cook the books yourself, but there isn't a single source I've ever seen that confirms what you're saying. You have decided that state boundaries are more important than mountain ranges. So you want to include Palmdale, Lancaster, San Bernardino, Ventura County, Riverside, Orange County and LA all in one simply because they're in the same state, while ignoring the fact that the tri-state urban area known as "greater NYC" is far more densely packed and covers much less area.

Political boundaries are artificial. If you want to claim that a city that's 15 miles from Manhattan is a separate metro area from NYC, then perhaps you shouldn't be counting all the cities that are 40 to 60 miles from Los Angeles that you've had to use in order to arrive at your odd conclusion.

None of that denies the fact that LA is freaking HUGE. It's labyrinthine, it's a sprawling megalopolis. No argument there! I also agree that in terms of pop culture it blows New York away. Hollywood and the pop music industry are both stronger influences on the pop culture of other nations than is anything in New York. But that's only one limited category of influence.
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Old 05-17-2007, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Jersey City
6,490 posts, read 16,176,041 times
Reputation: 5646
Quote:
Originally Posted by milquetoast View Post
That's right, Lammius! It doesn't make any sense, but that's what you have to do..when you cook the books. Jersey! Where's your MSA's? What do you mean, you don't have any! You should have at least three..what do you mean, they belong to someone else now? Trenton, Jersey City, Newark-that's 3 million right there! So..for reasons of politics, money, that sort of thing..when we ask for your state's total population we'll just subtract 3 million unlessss... we can always count those heads..TWICE! See how that works? With 354 metro areas in the country and with all that head counting there could be 800 million people in America and that's not right! Stamford? Bridgeport? Well..maybe not Bridgeport, but why not? Where does it end, and who decides ..and for what reasons? Doesn't make sense to me because I deal with the real world and not the theoretical fantasies of any given city's influence over another. Though New Jersey gave in long ago, I'm sure the eastern suburbs of Philly don't appreciate being told by ANYONE that they're more impressed by a rather distant New York than their own core of origin. Philadelphia hates New York, HATES it! The same way Oakland hates San Francisco and nearly everyone hates L.A. This isn't acceptable impression, it's repulsion! Rejection! More so than any other country, the United States is a diverse land of a great many cities. So many of them, each with their own distinctive personalities. This fact sets us apart from the rest. As for Tahiti, the Tri-State Area is a provincial moniker-you may be confusing 'market' with 'metro'. Kind of like referring to L.A. as the Southland or to Massachusetts as the Baystate. See, all have their own personal identity! In the real world, these are the reasons statistical areas should remain within the boundaries of their respective states, so all can be accounted for. Accurately. Ethnic, Economical and Cultural diversity is another matter up for interpretation of any kind. So are quality of life issues, but real numbers in the real world don't lie. The numbers stated earlier have everything to do with true metro criteria. Numbers accurately state the amounts for Los Angeles County and, for New York, the component counties of Bronx, Kings, New York, Putnam, Queens, Richmond, and Westchester. O M G! I forgot about Bergen/Passaic. That's another 1,350,000 heads that will ROLL!!

I don't think you really understand what a metropolitan statistical area is. The State of New Jersey has something like 8.6 million residents. OF THOSE residents, several million are located in an area that is part of the NYC metro region. Several million more are located in an area that is part of the Philadelphia region.

Metro population and state population are two different measures of the same population. I don't know why you think heads are "counted twice" to artificially boost population. You're looking at two different measures of population and trying to add them together, which, again, doesn't make sense.

Metropolitan population and state population are mutually exclusive. They're two different measures. One is a measure of the weight or influence of a metropolitan region, the other is a measure of the population of a state. In the Census I'll be counted as a resident of New Jersey and a resident of the New York CMSA, just as you'll be counted a resident of California and a resident of the Los Angeles CMSA. We're counted in each type of count, but we're not multiplied by two to develop a double count of anything.

You can be a resident of the NYC region and live in a different state. You can live in a certain state and be part of a metropolitan region, whether or not the principal city is within your own state. Newark, Trenton, and Jersey City are important cities, but we're part of one giant metropolitan complex, just as cities in LA County are part of the LA region, Wilmington DE is part of the Philadelphia region, Arlington VA is part of the Washington region, etc. etc. etc.

Am I adequately explaining this? If you need further help, consult the Census Bureau's website. There's lots of good information and definitions there.
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Old 05-17-2007, 08:22 PM
 
5,859 posts, read 14,063,505 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lammius View Post
I don't think you really understand what a metropolitan statistical area is. The State of New Jersey has something like 8.6 million residents. OF THOSE residents, several million are located in an area that is part of the NYC metro region. Several million more are located in an area that is part of the Philadelphia region.

Metro population and state population are two different measures of the same population. I don't know why you think heads are "counted twice" to artificially boost population. You're looking at two different measures of population and trying to add them together, which, again, doesn't make sense.

Metropolitan population and state population are mutually exclusive. They're two different measures. One is a measure of the weight or influence of a metropolitan region, the other is a measure of the population of a state. In the Census I'll be counted as a resident of New Jersey and a resident of the New York CMSA, just as you'll be counted a resident of California and a resident of the Los Angeles CMSA. We're counted in each type of count, but we're not multiplied by two to develop a double count of anything.

You can be a resident of the NYC region and live in a different state. You can live in a certain state and be part of a metropolitan region, whether or not the principal city is within your own state. Newark, Trenton, and Jersey City are important cities, but we're part of one giant metropolitan complex, just as cities in LA County are part of the LA region, Wilmington DE is part of the Philadelphia region, Arlington VA is part of the Washington region, etc. etc. etc.

Am I adequately explaining this? If you need further help, consult the Census Bureau's website. There's lots of good information and definitions there.
Good post, lammius.
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Old 05-18-2007, 12:29 AM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
4,465 posts, read 7,535,383 times
Reputation: 4363
While these ranking lists are important, they can ultimately shift depending on:

1.) What you're focusing on (i.e., economic influence, national influence, international influence, metropolitan gross product, etc.)

2.) Personal biases/opinions/agendas

Thus, there is a good amount of overlap that complicates any overall ranking.
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Old 05-18-2007, 04:31 AM
 
Location: Henderson NV
1,134 posts, read 915,621 times
Reputation: 82
I'm from Los Angeles. I currently live in Vegas but I'm very familiar with my hometown and have no more unnatural need to prove anything than anyone else on this thread. TheHarvester says that there are many dense msa's that make up New York City, and I'm the one that's not using any logic! I'm just stating fact. How can metropolitan areas make up a single city? I want a list. A list of all the metropolitan areas that make up New York City! That kind of defensiveness I didn't expect from someone in central Texas, but I did notice I made some New Jersey people a little unsettled. These are the same ones I mentioned earlier that have given up their identity and numbers to a place that makes light of them on a consistent basis. These are the same people that move here, tell you they're from New York and try to interject that nugget of info into every conversation. I tell them, " If it was so great there, why are you here?" That usually doesn't shut them up! This is my experience. I type what I know. Many different ways of looking at things. Financial institutions in Charlotte? Number of opera companies in New York? Level of sports fanatisism in Chicago? The overall worth of a place shouldn't be subject to that kind of interpretation. Tahiti, from New Jersey, lists New York as all top ten positions then says she's kidding! She's really not! Lammius and his commuter patterns. People in Las Vegas commute to L.A. on Southwest. McCarren International is even part of the LA/LB port system and I wouldn't dare extend L.A.'s msa that far. My point is, New York would. Nothing personal, Lammius but I think of New York about as much as I think of Baltimore, until it's forced on me. Then again, you and Tahiti seem to be very heavily influenced by New York. I, am not. Time to change your paradigms. Rainrock's got it right. Trenton in New York's msa? I think not. By the way, heads are not counted twice to boost population, heads from OTHER areas are counted to boost population. For example, to recognize the greater Newark area, you would have to count heads already counted by New York (who else). Those people would then have been counted twice. It's unreal, has no logic, makes no sense. This is not your average post. Now, if I can only figure out how to arrange this into paragraph form and put up other quotes!

Last edited by milquetoast; 05-18-2007 at 05:41 AM..
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Old 05-18-2007, 07:29 AM
 
Location: Jersey City
6,490 posts, read 16,176,041 times
Reputation: 5646
^ I see your point about the attitude of New Yorkers, but cities themselves don't determine metropolitan boundaries. The U.S. Census Bureau uses commuting data (based on the CTPP Journey To Work surveys) to determine how much of a draw a primary city is. If a certain percentage (I'm not sure what) of all commuters in a county commute to the center city et environs, then it is considered a metropolitan county.

New York City itself is not laying claim to NJ counties, saying "These are mine!!! Watch me grow! Muahahahaha!" But the U.S. Census Bureau observes a certain level of commuting activity between certain NJ counties and NYC, and can therefore determine that there is a connection between them.

Again, nobody is counted twice. The PMSAs in Northern NJ (Newark, Jersey City, Monmouth-Ocean, Middlesex-Somerset-Hunterdon, Bergen-Passaic, and Trenton) are metropolitan subdivisions of the New York CMSA, just like Riverside-San Bernardino, Ventura-Oxnard, and Anaheim-Santa Ana are PMSAs within the Los Angeles CMSA. Again, the sum of all PMSAs = the CMSA. Nobody's counted twice.

Last edited by lammius; 05-18-2007 at 08:12 AM..
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Austin, TX
1,231 posts, read 3,448,194 times
Reputation: 396
Quote:
Originally Posted by milquetoast View Post
...TheHarvester says that there are many dense msa's that make up New York City, and I'm the one that's not using any logic! I'm just stating fact. How can metropolitan areas make up a single city? I want a list. A list of all the metropolitan areas that make up New York City! That kind of defensiveness I didn't expect from someone in central Texas...
Defensiveness?

What am I "defending"?

The only thing I can think of that I was defending is logic. And you misquoted me as saying that there are many dense MSA's that make up NYC. I didn't say that. I said that the greater NYC SMSA is denser and the sub-metros comprising it are closer together than the widely separated sub-metros of LA. But lammius is explaining this in better terms than I am so I'll defer to his/her comments because they're expressing what I was trying to say but doing so more eloquently and precisely.

Defensiveness? I hate New York!
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Old 06-11-2007, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Houston Texas
2,898 posts, read 2,882,263 times
Reputation: 877
Quote:
Originally Posted by KerrTown View Post
These are the most important cities from most important to least:
  1. New York (of course)
  2. Washington, DC (government)
  3. Los Angeles (size)
  4. Chicago (comeback kid)
  5. Houston (New Chicago)
  6. Atlanta (sunbelt)
  7. Seattle (culture)
  8. Boston (historical)
  9. Philadelphia (historical)
  10. San Francisco (historical)
This is exactly the way my list would be in exactly the same order, although my # 11 would be Dallas. My 12 -20 would be, in order Detroit, Denver, Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Baltimore, San Antonio, Indianapolis and Miami

Last edited by sweetclimber; 06-11-2007 at 12:03 PM..
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Old 06-11-2007, 11:47 AM
 
1,965 posts, read 5,792,024 times
Reputation: 1273
San Francisco Bay Area is arguably number 4 after NY, LA and DC. Silicon valley- technology, venture capital and a HUGE overall population.
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Old 06-12-2007, 02:14 AM
 
Location: Henderson NV
1,134 posts, read 915,621 times
Reputation: 82
Most important city in the world is the United States Capital.
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