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What is perceived as a decline in quality could be an attempt to satisfy the musical taste of an ever widening fan base.
I have no doubt that this is the mindset of idiot record execs with Harvard MBA's.
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Popular music can't be too complex .
Nothing personal, but that's bs. Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Benny Goodman et.al were complex as hell and were on top of the music world in their day. Complexity isn't the problem, record execs and Clear Channel are the Anti-Christ.
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You get more bang for the buck by crossing over.
That is certainly true, but again, the ability to "cross over" has always been in the hands of radio stations and record companies marketing "gurus". God only know what would happen if DJ's were allowed to play what they like rather what the program director dictates.
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**** G. was or still is a phenomenal Fusion saxophonist.
He whose name we shall not say.
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Originally Posted by cougfan
Record companies and producers may not want the artist and/or group to change or evolve - they want to make $$$$$ off those people. If Lady Gaga decided she wanted to do an album of Sinatra standards, I wonder how her label would react.
Well that's true but in the case of Lady Gaga and others, their clout within the industry allows them to do whatever the hell they want to do. Of Course few achieve that level of status.
I ask the question after tripping over a website that contained a list of who they author believed to be the most influential blues guitarist. Of course Hendrix and Clapton were listed but they were listed above the likes of Lightin' Hopkins Jimmy Read and Mississippi John Hurt and I'm saying to myself that you cannot be listed above those who inspired you. Had it not been those who came before they wouldn't even know where to begin (and I think that they would agree with me).
It is not unusual for a band or group or performer to be in existence for many years, without achieving any success, but then they release something that just happens to have that special quality that appeals to the audience, and it is a hit. Then they keep on doing what they have always done, and never have another hit again. Because during their span of existence, there was only one piece that struck just the right. Nobody notices that their early stuff was ho-hum, even though it was exactly the same quality as their later stuff, and everyone does notice that that is ho-hum. They didn't decline, they remained uniform, and somewhere between A and Z, there was that one sound that caught on and they are held to that standard.
This happens frequently enough that a casual ovserver might conclude that many musicians declined in quality.
Let's isolate on a vocalist, as an illustration. A singer doesn't get "better" or "worse". He is what he is, and he does the best ha can with the material he's got. His recording career goes through a repertoire of songs by a variety of composers. All of a sudden he is handed a great song, and records it over a fantastic arrangement. Now he has come out of nowhere with a terrific hit that defines the singer, but he never again gets a song or an arrangement that catches the public's fancy. So his career declines back into oblivion. It's easy to name dozens, hundreds of such singers. He didn't decline in quality, he just never got another song or studio arrangement that grabbed the public.
One that illustrates the point well is Billy Ocean. Look at his discography: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Ocean_discography
Four studio albums in 8 years, none of which ever got above #152 on any charts. Then, Suddenly . . . .
Throughoug his entire career, he was never anything but Billy Ocean. But just once, there was a spinetingler.
Last edited by CowanStern; 05-12-2012 at 09:09 PM..
For music to be popular it has to be made simple as apposed to "absolute music" One of the most widely popular music forms grossing millions for its artist is rap or hip hop music . Some of this music doesn't even require a musician to be present in the studio or on the stage. IMO We are in a period of simplicity in popular music that can be attributed to the amount of money that can be made from simple music.
Although Jazz arranging is a complex art, the individual parts are not difficult to play. This is the reason that very few members of Duke's orchestra went on to greatness as soloist or band leaders. The big band era was followed by the bebop era which still today is the standard for complexity in Jazz performance.
Have faith when music moves too far in one direction there is a natural inclination for audiences to go toward music that is in the opposite direction. I think Robert Glasper is one the new "young lions" on this horizon in Pop music
Although Jazz arranging is a complex art, the individual parts are not difficult to play. This is the reason that very few members of Duke's orchestra went on to greatness as soloist or band leaders.
That is just so wrong on so many levels. Playing an Ellington arrangement in the high school jazz band may seem easy but the individual players in Ellington's band often had their arrangement tailored to their individual style of play. You might be able to hit the right note, but I doubt that you will find it easy hitting the right tone, and style. The individuals in Ellington's band were all masters of their instrument. Being in Ellington's band meant steady work and if you don't think there was great competition amongst the best musicians of the day to be in that band you are terribly wrong.
Just a short list of Ellington band members who are still Jazz Legends.
That is just so wrong on so many levels. Playing an Ellington arrangement in the high school jazz band may seem easy but the individual players in Ellington's band often had their arrangement tailored to their individual style of play. You might be able to hit the right note, but I doubt that you will find it easy hitting the right tone, and style. The individuals in Ellington's band were all masters of their instrument. Being in Ellington's band meant steady work and if you don't think there was great competition amongst the best musicians of the day to be in that band you are terribly wrong.
Just a short list of Ellington band members who are still Jazz Legends.
Johnny Hodges
Cootie Williams
Ben Webster
Jimmy Blanton
Billy Strayhorn
Paul Gonsalves
Oscar Pettiford
Clark Terry
Barney Bigard
Louie Bellson
+
I think Mingus was the only truly groundbreaking Ellington Alum, compared to the Jazz Messengers list of alums I think you will find more ground breaking musicians. The period that came after bebop was the "cool sound which was criticized for being too simple. But this simplicity made room for new arranging concepts by Gill Evans and the complex chromatic Lydian theory of improvisation by arranger and composer George Russell
What is perceived as a decline in quality could be an attempt to satisfy the musical taste of an ever widening fan base. I think it was Elton John who said once an artist has a major critically acclaimed album they should not try to top it with the next, in fact he said it is not possible.
Popular music can't be too complex . By its definition it has to satisfy the taste of a large number of people. You are probably familiar with term "cross over music". I am not sure when it officially became a subcategory , but today it is the preferred format for people on the business end of the music industry.
You get more bang for the buck by crossing over. Kenny G. was or still is a phenomenal Fusion saxophonist. I saw him play live as a side man in a Jazz quartet many years ago. The money he made crossing over into instrumental pop is how he lives on a golf course and was able to invest early and heavily in Starbucks. He could still be scuffling around New York dedicated to his art.
I think what he did as a Jazz artist, Shania Twain did as a country artist and Lionel Ritchie did it when he left the commodores and became a cross over giant.
I am sorry but Kenny G. is not a phenomenal Fusion saxophone player. Maybe he once was. But he slid to becoming an instrumental pop musician. George Benson was a brilliant jazz guitar player in the 1960s who happened to be a fine singer. Once he figured out he could sell more records singing, his recordings quickly changed to grossly favor singing.
I think on this thread topic though, I think many are over-thinking it. I think it is simpler. Many artists, after initial success, simply get lazy. They coast for 10-20 years selling records and living comfortably. Eventually even their loyal fans get tired and stop buying records.
Then the aging artist goes on tour playing oldies to make some money to supplement retirement.
I think on this thread topic though, I think many are over-thinking it. I think it is simpler. Many artists, after initial success, simply get lazy. They coast for 10-20 years selling records and living comfortably. Eventually even their loyal fans get tired and stop buying records.
Then the aging artist goes on tour playing oldies to make some money to supplement retirement.
There is that argument.
There is the issue of fame, money and terminal internal bickering, the latter probably being more responsible than any other factor for a rock/pop group suffering abbreviated longevity. Cream lasted all of four years before the Bruce/Baker wars destroyed the group, The Temptations did not survive the Ruffin/Kindricks defections, one need look no further than Guns and Roses, and the role of personal animosity is writ large in the history of the Beatles.
I am sorry but Kenny G. is not a phenomenal Fusion saxophone player. Maybe he once was. But he slid to becoming an instrumental pop musician. George Benson was a brilliant jazz guitar player in the 1960s who happened to be a fine singer. Once he figured out he could sell more records singing, his recordings quickly changed to grossly favor singing.
I think on this thread topic though, I think many are over-thinking it. I think it is simpler. Many artists, after initial success, simply get lazy. They coast for 10-20 years selling records and living comfortably. Eventually even their loyal fans get tired and stop buying records.
Then the aging artist goes on tour playing oldies to make some money to supplement retirement.
Kenny Gorelick and George Benson are good examples. I don't think any musician wants to spend twenty years busting his hump so people will think he is still good. George Benson was known as a singer before he was known as a guitar player. Kenny was in Barry Whites band when he was in high school, toured with Stones and was in Jeff Lorbers fusion band years before he was Kenny G. I met him back stage at a jazz in the park gig in 1979 or 80 and he seemed a little tired of the business back then. You get tired of not having control of your art. Benson would ask to have a Phil Upchurch play rhythm guitar on his albums but the producers would always cut him out of the final mix.
I think what we see as a loss of quality is an artist taking control of his art , They begin writing and producing music that they want to hear and not particularly music their fans want to hear them perform.
To see why musicians decline, you have to look at the opposite, musicians who never did decline. John Lennon was making great music from the early 60s up until his death in 1980. He had some bizarre excursions but his last album was very good and very successful. I think artists don't decline if they keep their wits about them, don't get too drugged out and don't stray outside their comfort zone. Lennon's last album Double Fantasy was him doing the type of songs he does best, not really branching out.
The artists who don't decline are the ones who stay in their safe place. Veterans like Tom Petty, AC/DC and the Ramones in their day keep it simple and can keep churning out stuff as good as ever. They don't attempt to cater to current popular music or recent innovations. It's uncommon for a great act to not go stale because they need a huge combination of factors to go their way. They have to not get caught up in drugs. They have to not get too caught up in fame and become self indulgent. They have to keep the same instinct they had for good material when they were younger.
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