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I keep hearing about how you cannot just abandon the children or leave them to starve if you are a moral society. It seems like such an iron clad argument on the face of it, one that settles the matter and keeps the subsidies flowing, but it seems to be missing something. Even if you accept that statement as a universal truth it also remains true that our current system amounts to rewarding irresponsible behavior, which just encourages more of that behavior and causes a death spiral that leads to unsustainability. That problem does not go away just because you point out that feeding starving children is the moral thing to do. That pretty much amounts to sitting on a high horse and smugly watching as your society crumbles before your feet.
We need a long term solution, and that solution has to involve ways of steering society in a direction where less of these unwanted and/or unaffordable children are created, not more. It is the responsible behavior that needs to be rewarded/encouraged, not the irresponsible.
I get what you're trying to say, but people are dumb. Women allow morons to impregnate them and then say, "He should've worn a condom." instead of saying, "I should've used birth control to protect myself from getting pregnant." or "I shouldn't have let him have sex with me without a condom."
People just don't think straight. And I'm sorry to say, this won't work because you'll have kids who go hungry. They didn't ask to be here and it's not their fault. It would be wrong to let them starve.
Side note: I am a woman.
I would recommend you update your information about the system and how it works. With the PRWORA(Personal Responsiblity Work Opportunity Rights Act,{Welfare reform}) signed into law 8/22/1996, much of your assumptions about family dynamics have changed. Because of the limit set for Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF [Welfare]), Title 4 section D of the Social Security Act (Child Support), changed as well. Men may call women morons for not using birth control, but men are more accountable then ever before for the support of theirchildren. The government realized someone would need to step up to help single mothers, and who better than the child/rens fathers. Paternity acknowlegdments signed now not only puts the fathers name on the birth certificate, It also contains an agreement allowing the proper agency to assess and collect child support, medical expenses, daycare expenses, & medical insurance requiements.
So now those "moron" women share all of the expense of raising a child with the father. I suspect some men would under those circumstances "choose" to wear condoms and even perhaps be more selective about sexual partners.
I mentioned this in response to one of your posts in another thread, but again why does everyone have to work, much less work 30-50 hours? The GDP per full time worker in this country is well over $100,000. We have more than enough money to address these issues, to subsidize children so as not to punish them for the sins of their parents (to the degree many in this thread believe that poor or lower-middle-class parents having children is a sin...), and even to rework the distribution of income, wealth, and services for all.
There is no reason to cling to the Malthusian notion that everyone must work to justify their existence, much less work long hours or in thankless jobs where they can easily (and soon) be replaced by robots. There is definitely no reason to look at our low birth rate and conclude there is an epidemic of "Poor (Minority) Welfare Queens (TM)" that requires us to eviscerate our social welfare policies and further punish the already disadvantaged.
It took a lot of hard work, dedication and sacrifice to get us where we are today as a society, and if we plan on advancing any further it will take a lot more hard work, dedication and sacrifice to get us there. The sort of entitlement society you seem to be promoting in your post will not nurture the type of culture where those qualities are found in abundance. And all hyperbole about sinning aside, it is more a matter of promoting a social model that is sustainable in to the future than it is a morality play.
This may not have all the detail you were looking for but this quote pretty well sums up the sort of solution that immediately came to mind when I first read this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Bully
You can't have a viable society which has a welfare state and restrictive abortion laws at the same time. And truth be told, we don't. There are very few restrictions to abortion in this country. However, we may not be going far enough. If we are to curb subsidies that we intend to give parents for children they cannot afford to raise, then we must in turn increase subsidies for methods of preventing pregnancy or terminating it. Fully subsidized abortions, at least in the first trimester, fully subsidized birth control, and instead of giving tax allowances to poorer people who have children, reverse it and give tax allowances to people who remain childless while they are below a certain income level. Not punish people who choose to have children, but reward those who cannot afford children and decide not to have them.
Nothing exactly ground breaking but generally speaking we're subsidizing and promoting the wrong sort of behavior.
This may not have all the detail you were looking for but this quote pretty well sums up the sort of solution that immediately came to mind when I first read this thread:
Nothing exactly ground breaking but generally speaking we're subsidizing and promoting the wrong sort of behavior.
It took a lot of hard work, dedication and sacrifice to get us where we are today as a society, and if we plan on advancing any further it will take a lot more hard work, dedication and sacrifice to get us there. The sort of entitlement society you seem to be promoting in your post will not nurture the type of culture where those qualities are found in abundance. And all hyperbole about sinning aside, it is more a matter of promoting a social model that is sustainable in to the future than it is a morality play.
I couldn't agree more; as long aa we remember these children have 2 parents and both are responsible to support them. As long as jokes like "I don't have any kids I know of" remain acceptable for men, society relieves them of theironus. Children born out of wedlock are not born to only the mother, for too long the tax payers have taken on the burden of absent fathers and or mothers. Children have the right to the contribution of both parents, not only monetarily, but emotionally, and physically. Unwed fathers tend to forget the first children when they get married and decide to "start a family". The first family doesn't go away and chances are he too cannot afford to support additional children. This is not a "woman's" problem; although since she is usually the custodial parent the full brunt in this discussions fall on her, Men need to stop sleeping with as many women as they can, because our society is slowly righting an old wrong.
I would recommend you update your information about the system and how it works. With the PRWORA(Personal Responsiblity Work Opportunity Rights Act,{Welfare reform}) signed into law 8/22/1996, much of your assumptions about family dynamics have changed. Because of the limit set for Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF [Welfare]), Title 4 section D of the Social Security Act (Child Support), changed as well. Men may call women morons for not using birth control, but men are more accountable then ever before for the support of theirchildren. The government realized someone would need to step up to help single mothers, and who better than the child/rens fathers. Paternity acknowlegdments signed now not only puts the fathers name on the birth certificate, It also contains an agreement allowing the proper agency to assess and collect child support, medical expenses, daycare expenses, & medical insurance requiements.
So now those "moron" women share all of the expense of raising a child with the father. I suspect some men would under those circumstances "choose" to wear condoms and even perhaps be more selective about sexual partners.
I know that men generally are involved in their child's life. I'm talking about situations where a girl gets impregnated by a "friend with benefits" or "boyfriend" and then bashes him when he doesn't want to be involved in the child's life.
Education and over education exacerbates the problems without jobs.
The problem is very very simple- not enough good paying jobs. That's the root of the problem.
I think you must be using the term education to denote the type of "education" that leaves the student bare of any feeling that he/she is connected to something larger than themselves. Jobs don't just "happen," for the most part the future of jobs in America will depend on just how much say we are going to have in our own government and it's policies that create jobs everywhere but here.
I know that men generally are involved in their child's life. I'm talking about situations where a girl gets impregnated by a "friend with benefits" or "boyfriend" and then bashes him when he doesn't want to be involved in the child's life.
Then you would agree if he didn't want to have a child by this woman he could have prevented it; either by not having sex with her, or by using a condom. If he doesn't want to be involved in a childs life he should make sure he doesn't have children. Taking it out on the child is never the answer, You can have an ex-girlfriend or an ex-boyfriend, but there is no such thing as an ex-child. "All" adults need to be responsible for their actions.
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