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Well obviously I can't change some of your minds about what the victim blaming mentality leads too....more pain and suffering for the victims.
You can believe what you want to believe, but I've worked with and consoled enough rape victims in real life so I know I'm right. Especially the poor men who are raped and get shamed because they couldn't stop it. The focus should be on the perps and not the victims, unless it's their recovery.
Starting a thread about women protecting themselves is the way to do it, not blame them for their rape. Funny enough, I've never ever seen a thread on city data about that...only the rape victims are partly to blame for their rape. Huh.
If you would not say or think the exact same things about a man who has been raped by a man, you should not say them or think them about a woman.
Would you EVER say to a man who has been raped by men: Why were you dressed like that? Why were you in a bar alone? Why were you drinking with those guys? Why did you drink so much? Why did you leave with him?
Again, have never heard a man even remotely blamed or asked to "take responsibility" for his actions when he has been raped.
Last edited by MoonBeam33; 01-27-2016 at 03:05 PM..
Its not a matter of innocence , and the "dancing naked on the bar" quote was intended as a swipe at an overused situational example.. I think you just read to much into it, but I will say, that's good ....analytical ....thinking. A d no, I do not view that situation any differently, in terms of responsibility. I had actually addressed that in another post. My disdain for the school of thought that places responsibility on a rape victim , regardless of events leading up to the rape, ....I thought I had made clear. Its why "asking for it" is in quotes, to show those are not my words. Hope that clears things up.
As to the situation you describe, following g a man to his room and "getting naked", ....that's getting into having to divine intent, which I don't like doing. Its the same thing with using how a woman is dressed and acting in a bar. The dancing topless or whatever. These sitjatio s are usually fueled by alcohol and/or drugs, which any guy with half a brain can see , does not , at all, mean she's saying "throw me down and take me".
I think you and I may simply have a fundamental disagreement then, on what constitutes rape. To me, the events leading up to a "rape" are crucial to understanding intent as well as consent on both parties. And both are responsible for their actions. You'll likely not agree, but in my opinion, if a woman goes to a man's hotel room and gets in bed naked with him, that's consent.
And given the tone of your posts, I have to question how much, if any, responsibility you place on women? You seem to believe that men(even those with half a brain, or intoxicated themselves) are expected to gauge how intoxicated a woman is, what her intentions are, and whether she has actually given "clear, undeniable, enthusiastic" consent. What exactly are THEIR responsibilities in this egalitarian society of ours?
This conversation is not and has not been "how can women protect themselves" it's "how women are partly to blame for being raped" HUGE difference.
No, the conversation started with "you shouldn't blame women for being raped, they aren't asking for it, and the rapist is still completely at fault even if the woman was dressed provocatively". When that was the conversation, everything was fine.
But the conversation has since morphed into "women shouldn't have to protect themselves, they shouldn't have to try to act responsibly, they should be able to dress like a prostitute and go get drunk at a bar because if anything happens it's not their fault and they are just a Victim! I do not want to exercise self control or responsible behavior, because that's hard and I don't wanna, I wanna go party, and so I'm going to justify my bad behavior by saying that anyone who tells me I should act responsibly is just Blaming the Victim, and is a horrible person! Now, I'm gonna go party, you Victim Blamer! Take that!"
That second conversation? That's the one I'm mad about. Because I have a little girl, who's going to be a young woman soon. And if anyone starts putting that stuff in her head, they are putting her in DANGER. Needless danger. That second conversation? That needs to STOP. RIGHT NOW.
Well obviously I can't change some of your minds about what the victim blaming mentality leads too....more pain and suffering for the victims.
You can believe what you want to believe, but I've worked with and consoled enough rape victims in real life so I know I'm right. Especially the poor men who are raped and get shamed because they couldn't stop it. The focus should be on the perps and not the victims, unless it's their recovery.
Starting a thread about women protecting themselves is the way to do it, not blame them for their rape. Funny enough, I've never ever seen a thread on city data about that...only the rape victims are partly to blame for their rape. Huh.
Keep it balanced.....Tawana Brawley.....remember her and Sharpton's "outrage"? Well, she's FINALLY paying for her lies but, it took forever to get her to justice......
How about Crystal Mangum??? You know, the one that accused the 3 Duke Lacrosse players of rape? She's now serving 14-18 years for 2nd degree murder of her boyfriend....real peach...
I think you and I may simply have a fundamental disagreement then, on what constitutes rape. To me, the events leading up to a "rape" are crucial to understanding intent as well as consent on both parties. And both are responsible for their actions. You'll likely not agree, but in my opinion, if a woman goes to a man's hotel room and gets in bed naked with him, that's consent.
And given the tone of your posts, I have to question how much, if any, responsibility you place on women? You seem to believe that men(even those with half a brain, or intoxicated themselves) are expected to gauge how intoxicated a woman is, what her intentions are, and whether she has actually given "clear, undeniable, enthusiastic" consent. What exactly are THEIR responsibilities in this egalitarian society of ours?
No, it's not and you know it. Consent is consent. Are you the type of person to decide that someone meant something based on your interpretation of their body language, rather than actually checking with the person?
[This is] like a rape apologist - she was naked, she was drunk, we had been making out- all these are reasons to excuse rape. What you are really saying is men are too stupid to ask for actual consent, or wild animals who cannot control themselves and will rape any woman they assume has consented or is in a situation where she cannot defend herself. That's what statements like this imply - men cannot control themselves and therefore cannot be blamed for rape in your given situation.
See my post above yours and ask yourself if you would ever question a man who has been raped by a man the same way you would a woman.
Last edited by Jeo123; 01-28-2016 at 12:24 PM..
Reason: Focus on points, not posters
No, the conversation started with "you shouldn't blame women for being raped, they aren't asking for it, and the rapist is still completely at fault even if the woman was dressed provocatively". When that was the conversation, everything was fine.
But the conversation has since morphed into "women shouldn't have to protect themselves, they shouldn't have to try to act responsibly, they should be able to dress like a prostitute and go get drunk at a bar because if anything happens it's not their fault and they are just a Victim! I do not want to exercise self control or responsible behavior, because that's hard and I don't wanna, I wanna go party, and so I'm going to justify my bad behavior by saying that anyone who tells me I should act responsibly is just Blaming the Victim, and is a horrible person! Now, I'm gonna go party, you Victim Blamer! Take that!"
That second conversation? That's the one I'm mad about. Because I have a little girl, who's going to be a young woman soon. And if anyone starts putting that stuff in her head, they are putting her in DANGER. Needless danger. That second conversation? That needs to STOP. RIGHT NOW.
93% of male rape is committed by other males. Are you going to tell your son the exact same thing you tell your daughter, how to protect himself from other men who might have nefarious intent? Or are the rules different because he's male and he can act however irresponsibly he wants to?
If you would not say or think the exact same things about a man who has been raped by a man, you should not say them or think them about a woman.
Would you EVER say to a man who has been raped by men: Why were you dressed like that? Why were you in a bar alone? Why were you drinking with those guys? Why did you drink so much?
Again, have never heard a man even remotely blamed or asked to "take responsibility" for his actions when he has been raped.
That's because the vast majority of male/male rapes are forcible, and take place in a prison environment. For those that take place on a college campus or in a club scenario, I would absolutely ask the same questions. Why on earth would you get incoherently drunk, grab a guy's crotch, and then follow him back to his apartment? Or drive off in a car with three strangers?
No, it's not and you know it. Consent is consent. Are you the type of person to decide that someone meant something based on your interpretation of their body language, rather than actually checking with the person?
You sound like a rape apologist - she was naked, she was drunk, we had been making out- all these are reasons to excuse rape. What you are really saying is men are too stupid to ask for actual consent, or wild animals who cannot control themselves and will rape any woman they assume has consented or is in a situation where she cannot defend herself. That's what statements like this imply - men cannot control themselves and therefore cannot be blamed for rape in your given situation.
See my post above yours and ask yourself if you would ever question a man who has been raped by a man the same way you would a woman.
You know, I agree with you that going up to a guy's hotel room, getting naked, and getting in the bed is not consent.
However, I also realize, that this scenario becomes a problem if a gal accuses a guy of raping her, and the guy says no I didn't she consented, and there's no video or anything like that to prove one way or another. If the gal is in his hotel room naked in his bed I'm a whole lot more inclined to believe the guy in this scenario. It at least gives me enough doubt in the gal's version of events that I wouldn't be able to "convict" the guy. Because 99 times out of 100 when a gal gets naked in bed with a guy, it's cause she wants to have sex.
I mean, if she says no, it means no. But if it's a pure he-said-she-said situation, and all of her actions said yes, it casts significant doubt on whether or not she actually verbally said no.
So I disagree with folks saying "she was asking for it", but I agree with folks saying "well she could be lying, and her actions support that conclusion". Now if you can prove she's not lying somehow, that she said no or obviously communicated a no through actions at any point, then that's the end of the story. Done.
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A d no, I do not view that situation any differently, in terms of responsibility. I had actually addressed that in another post. My disdain for the school of thought that places responsibility on a rape victim , regardless of events leading up to the rape, ....I thought I had made clear. Its why "asking for it" is in quotes, to show those are not my words. Hope that clears things up.