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93% of male rape is committed by other males. Are you going to tell your son the exact same thing you tell your daughter, how to protect himself from other men who might have nefarious intent? Or are the rules different because he's male and he can act however irresponsibly he wants to?
Yes, of course obviously I'm going to teach my son to not dress like a male prostitute, or go into pick up bars and get drunk, or go up to a guy (or gal's) room until such point as the relationship has reached a high level of trust, yadda yadda. My son is still very young, he could turn out to be gay, or bi, or whatever. Of course I will teach him to protect himself. Why wouldn't I? I will also teach my daughter that no means no if someone says it to her. I will also teach them both that lying about someone else raping them is just as bad as raping them.
You know, I agree with you that going up to a guy's hotel room, getting naked, and getting in the bed is not consent.
However, I also realize, that this scenario becomes a problem if a gal accuses a guy of raping her, and the guy says no I didn't she consented, and there's no video or anything like that to prove one way or another. If the gal is in his hotel room naked in his bed I'm a whole lot more inclined to believe the guy in this scenario. It at least gives me enough doubt in the gal's version of events that I wouldn't be able to "convict" the guy. Because 99 times out of 100 when a gal gets naked in bed with a guy, it's cause she wants to have sex.
I mean, if she says no, it means no. But if it's a pure he-said-she-said situation, and all of her actions said yes, it casts significant doubt on whether or not she actually verbally said no.
So I disagree with folks saying "she was asking for it", but I agree with folks saying "well she could be lying, and her actions support that conclusion". Now if you can prove she's not lying somehow, that she said no or obviously communicated a no through actions at any point, then that's the end of the story. Done.
Except the scenario is ridiculous. If there are no witnesses - and why would there be??? -how do you know he didn't take off her clothes? What if she was in the bathroom changing into her pjs and he went in while she was changing? If she was drunk or otherwise intoxicated, you have no proof either way if she took off her clothes or he did. What if he was a friend and he said he'd make sure she got back to her room safely? She had no reason not to trust him.
This is the problem with people not in the situation trying to "prove" rape, and this is why people are now being educated on what clear, verbal consent is and that a person who is intoxicated cannot consent. Unfortunately it's going to take people awhile to catch up, and there will always be people among us who want to decide what consent is for someone else.
If you would not say or think the exact same things about a man who has been raped by a man, you should not say them or think them about a woman.
Would you EVER say to a man who has been raped by men: Why were you dressed like that? Why were you in a bar alone? Why were you drinking with those guys? Why did you drink so much? Why did you leave with him?
Again, have never heard a man even remotely blamed or asked to "take responsibility" for his actions when he has been raped.
You don't know a lot of gay guys, do you? Go talk to them, they've said that to their gay friends.
"Of COURSE a person who forces another person to do something, be it sexual or otherwise, is at fault for THEIR actions. ...acting like a wild party animal/drunk is perhaps contributory to being in that vulnerable position, so TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for being an irresponsible, foolish idiot who put themself in that place to begin with. Have self control, don't get so drunk you pass out. Don't tease guys, don't lead them on, and you're less likely to find yourself in a room alone with an aggressive, forceful man with no impulse control who will rape you. Why poke a beast with a stick? Be sensible. Acting sluttishly is going to send a different message than acting modestly, why send that message? ..."
is blaming the victim for rape. It's blaming the victim for unwise behavior, and still blaming the rapist for the rape.
Behavior , such as you describe, I cannot argue, that its risky and certainly marks the person as a target for a predator. Use of drugs and alcohol , whether the victim willingly indulged, or was slipped a Mickey, to get inhibition down , is nothing new. Slipping X or something into a girls drink to knock out her inhibitions and awareness is becoming quite common. The whole date rape business. I'm thinking that we need to acquiesce , that each case of a rape is unique, and it seems we are , all of us, trying to apply a catch all analisyis to every situation. Events and circumstances vary far to wildly to do that.
My feelings and opinions about rape are far from objective. Can't argue that either. The wild party girl, who goess to a fraternity party, willingly drops some X and backs it with Jack Daniels, knowing , fully, how it will effect her, is engaging in risky behavior. The predators can spot her 10 miles out. She's become a target. No doubt. Not all men have the same standards of male behavior, and if nobody is watching out for her, her chances of being assaulted are high. Whether she's conscious to experience it or not.
For me, this is where the line gets drawn, as to responsibility. Even if she indulged in the chemicaly brain fart, willingly, responsibility still lays , entirely, with anyone who takes advantage of that, and assaults her. Even if it seems that she is willing at the time of a sex act, its the chemicles causing that, and a guy who engaged in any sexual congress with her is, more than likely, fully aware of that. In a great many cases, she has been given drugs , slipped into a drink or whatever, without her knowing, . Two very different situations, the latter of which gets premeditation for a resultant assault attached, the former is not that much different, in my eyes, but from an objective, legal , standpoint, premeditation and target of opportunity are quite different.
Nevertheless, the outcome is the same. In either circumstance, I still can't bring myself to lay blame on the victim. Bad judgement is not a crime. It certainly shouldn't carry a punishment of being sexually assaulted, and the lifelong pain of living with that. The labels that will be stuck on her, and the serious loss of self respect and peer respect, amongst a plethora of other things, because some lecherous hump saw her as a piece of meat.
Ok, that's two sets of circumstances, that lead to sexual assault. I'd say these are a large percentage of the type where a victim gets blame put on tbem. Now, moving on to the other type of verminous predator. The street hunter. An actively prowling animal, with a whole different set of motives. Waiting in the bushes or behind a car, waiting to attack. A filthy, two legged beast (I call them bi press) who's main desire is to inflict pain and demonstrate to his prey how helpless they are. We still see people assign blame to the victim, in such cases. Armchair commandos, yammering on about personal security and situational awareness. That is just flat WRONG. These people just need to watch their movies and keep their mouths shut.
My lady and I experienced this type after her assault, but more by them heaping very unwanted and unwelcome praise on her for prevailing in the face of overwhelming odds. She needed no reminding of what happened or what she had to do. She does not, in any way, have any sense of pride or accomplishment for any of it. Quite the opposite. She's a nurse. She helps heal traumatic injuries, not inflict them. So, I guess what I'm saying is, sensitivity and empathy for victims is multifaceted. Enthusiastic praise for self defense can be as damaging as laying blame for the attack happening in the first place. There are so many sides and individual sets of circumstances to this issue, it makes my head hurt.
This is about as objective as I can get. This is to emotional of an issue for me. When someone says "rape" my mind , automatically sees a tiny , beautiful, gentle, caring lady, being knocked to the ground, by a leering, sadistic, flea bitten beast, and reminds me I wasn't there to protect her. I couldn't have been, but it doesn't keep my mind from taking me there. But, I digress. Victims of rape do not need people judging them. In any way. Be it scorifying them for bad judgement and risky behavior, or wild praise for successfully stopping an attack.
Rape victims have enough reminders, permanently burned into them.
Last edited by NVplumber; 01-27-2016 at 04:14 PM..
Behavior , such as you describe, I cannot argue, that its risky and certainly marks the person as a target for a predator. Use of drugs and alcohol , whether the victim willingly indulged, or was slipped a Mickey, to get inhibition down , is nothing new. Slipping X or something into a girls drink to knock out her inhibitions and awareness is becoming quite common. The whole date rape business. I'm thinking that we need to acquiesce , that each case of a rape is unique, and it seems we are , all of us, trying to apply a catch all analisyis to every situation. Events and circumstances vary far to wildly to do that.
My feelings and opinions about rape are far from objective. Can't argue that either. The wild party girl, who goess to a fraternity party, willingly drops some X and backs it with Jack Daniels, knowing , fully, how it will effect her, is engaging in risky behavior. The predators can spot her 10 miles out. She's become a target. No doubt. Not all men have the same standards of male behavior, and if nobody is watching out for her, her chances of being assaulted are high. Whether she's conscious to experience it or not.
For me, this is where the line gets drawn, as to responsibility. Even if she indulged in the chemicaly brain fart, willingly, responsibility still lays , entirely, with anyone who takes advantage of that, and assaults her. Even if it seems that she is willing at the time of a sex act, its the chemicles causing that, and a guy who engaged in any sexual congress with her is, more than likely, fully aware of that. In a great many cases, she has been given drugs , slipped into a drink or whatever, without her knowing, . Two very different situations, the latter of which gets premeditation for a resultant assault attached, the former is not that much different, in my eyes, but from an objective, legal , standpoint, premeditation and target of opportunity are quite different.
Nevertheless, the outcome is the same. In either circumstance, I still can't bring myself to lay blame on the victim. Bad judgement is not a crime. It certainly shouldn't carry a punishment of being sexually assaulted, and the lifelong pain of living with that. The labels that will be stuck on her, and the serious loss of self respect and peer respect, amongst a plethora of other things, because some lecherous hump saw her as a piece of meat.
Ok, that's two sets of circumstances, that lead to sexual assault. I'd say these are a large percentage of the type where a victim gets blame put on tbem. Now, moving on to the other type of verminous predator. The street hunter. An actively prowling animal, with a whole different set of motives. Waiting in the bushes or behind a care, waiting to attack. A filthy, two legged beast (I call them bi press) who's main desire is to inflict pain and demonstrate to his prey how helpless they are. We still see people assign blame to the victim, in such cases. Armchair commandos, yammering on about personal security and situational awareness. That is just flat WRONG. These people just need to watch their movies and keep their mouths shut.
My lady and I experienced this type after her assault, but more by them heaping very unwanted and unwelcome praise on her for prevailing in the face of overwhelming odds. She needed no reminding of what happened or what she had to do. She does not, in any way, have any sense of pride or accomplishment for any of it. Quite the opposite. She's a nurse. She helps heal traumatic injuries, not inflict them. So, I guess what I'm saying is, sensitivity and empathy for victims is multifaceted. Enthusiastic praise for self defense can be as damaging as laying blame for the attack happening in the first place. There are so many sides and individual sets of circumstances to this issue, it makes my head hurt.
This is about as objective as I can get. This is to emotional of an issue for me. When someone says "rape" my mind , automatic all, sees a tiny , beautiful, gentle, caring lady, being knocked to the ground, by a leering, sadistic, flea bitten beast, and reminds me I wasn't there to protect her. I couldn't have been, but it doesn't keep my mind from taking me there. But, I digress. Victims of rape do not need people judging them. In any way. Be it scorifying them for bad judgement and risky behavior, or wild praise for successfully stopping an attack.
Rape victims have enough reminders, permanently burned into them.
Anyone who blames the victim in a situation similar to the one your wife experienced is a jackass. There's no gray area there.
Anyone who blames the victim more than the perp is a jackass when it comes to the victim being a wild, outta control animal. But why can't it be acknowledged that maybe some things could've been done differently? In the video I posted a little bit ago, the girl allegedly was raped by someone she was not sexually attracted to, but was taking a shower with. Completely nude. Why does that seem like a good idea in the slightest? In all honesty?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonBeam33
1. I have known gay men my entire life.
2. Male on male rape is actually committed by heterosexual men more than homosexual men.
Then how are they heterosexual? I don't understand that at all.
No, the conversation started with "you shouldn't blame women for being raped, they aren't asking for it, and the rapist is still completely at fault even if the woman was dressed provocatively". When that was the conversation, everything was fine.
But the conversation has since morphed into "women shouldn't have to protect themselves, they shouldn't have to try to act responsibly, they should be able to dress like a prostitute and go get drunk at a bar because if anything happens it's not their fault and they are just a Victim! I do not want to exercise self control or responsible behavior, because that's hard and I don't wanna, I wanna go party, and so I'm going to justify my bad behavior by saying that anyone who tells me I should act responsibly is just Blaming the Victim, and is a horrible person! Now, I'm gonna go party, you Victim Blamer! Take that!"
That second conversation? That's the one I'm mad about. Because I have a little girl, who's going to be a young woman soon. And if anyone starts putting that stuff in her head, they are putting her in DANGER. Needless danger. That second conversation? That needs to STOP. RIGHT NOW.
Exactly. In fact, in public schools we try to teach children to make good decisions. Not only in sex education, but in life in general.
Then how are they heterosexual? I don't understand that at all.
You'll never understand it. Because to a leftist, a person is only considered homosexual when it suits the agenda. Who they have sex with or molest doesn't matter. A man who once had a girlfriend but now only likes to touch little boys is not a homosexual. Got it? Yeah, me neither...
Anyone who blames the victim in a situation similar to the one your wife experienced is a jackass. There's no gray area there.
Anyone who blames the victim more than the perp is a jackass when it comes to the victim being a wild, outta control animal. But why can't it be acknowledged that maybe some things could've been done differently? In the video I posted a little bit ago, the girl allegedly was raped by someone she was not sexually attracted to, but was taking a shower with. Completely nude. Why does that seem like a good idea in the slightest? In all honesty?
Then how are they heterosexual? I don't understand that at all.
Yes, I have to wonder why she would be showering , totally nude with some guy she is not attracted to Or even being nude in the same room. Not without it being like an emergency washing because of chemical exposure or something, with time being of the essence and not enough time to wait for individual showers. But, as I said in the post , there are so many individual sets of circumstances, each case being unique, it makes my head hurt.
You would be surprised how many jackwagons there are out there. In our case, only one has ever made any comment about my lady having any "responsibility" for her being assaulted. Questioning where she had parked , not selecting a better lit place with line of sight to doors , more well lit, blah blah. His badge, and the fact his partner told him, immediately, to walk away is why he's still eating with his teeth and not through a straw. All other hurtful comments came from idiot wannabe , self defense gurus, (so they think) spewing unwelcome praise. The latter is just as bad. All intentions aside.
Anyway, this showering situation you speak of is a mystery to me. As are many other cases where bad judgement is an understatement. But, as I said, I can not, in any way, call myself objective on this. It hits to close to home.
but 90% of the time they cant prove it and that's why rape cases have become a witch hunt and the emotions are taking over the court room and that is scary. The goal of womens groups (or white knights) is for women to be able to make an accusation and the guy has to prove himself innocent in court and if he cant he does 20+ years. I saw it myself in the court room as the prosecution was frittering through jurors, needless to say I was cut.
The whole thing was a joke and some what comical until you remind yourself that guy sitting there is looking at 20 years based on a kangaroo court.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkbab5
You know, I agree with you that going up to a guy's hotel room, getting naked, and getting in the bed is not consent.
However, I also realize, that this scenario becomes a problem if a gal accuses a guy of raping her, and the guy says no I didn't she consented, and there's no video or anything like that to prove one way or another. If the gal is in his hotel room naked in his bed I'm a whole lot more inclined to believe the guy in this scenario. It at least gives me enough doubt in the gal's version of events that I wouldn't be able to "convict" the guy. Because 99 times out of 100 when a gal gets naked in bed with a guy, it's cause she wants to have sex.
I mean, if she says no, it means no. But if it's a pure he-said-she-said situation, and all of her actions said yes, it casts significant doubt on whether or not she actually verbally said no.
So I disagree with folks saying "she was asking for it", but I agree with folks saying "well she could be lying, and her actions support that conclusion". Now if you can prove she's not lying somehow, that she said no or obviously communicated a no through actions at any point, then that's the end of the story. Done.
Last edited by pittsflyer; 01-27-2016 at 06:12 PM..
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