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Not true, as I mentioned genderfluid and non-binary folks, and that is a matter of their gender identity, just as much as transgender is. I also tossed "cis" into the heap, which is to say you identify as what you were born, lucky you.
I came up with all of those terms off the top of my head because I know people who use them. They are part of my lexicon, and yet I'm discovering new stuff fairly often, too. Some folks get pretty upset about new ideas and new words, and other people's need or desire to identify, label, or explain some facet of who they are... I don't. I'm fine with it. Use all the words you want, make up more if there isn't one yet that suits you. I mean I'm not the word police or the identity police.
It is very simply the "describe the community with one acronym that is inclusive to all in it" thing that makes me want to put my head on my desk and weep.
And to be honest, at the end of the day, I just love people who are open-minded and good to one another in a group, and who give and get acceptance for whatever, and whoever they are, and the only people I feel any need to exclude from the "club" so to speak, are the ones I consider to be a-holes who get mad about anybody living or doing something that is alien to them. The whole, "I don't get it, so I don't like it, and I don't think you should be allowed to do it" crowd.
I'd like a term that sort of transcends all of it, accepts any identity or orientation in a true "if you aren't harming anyone then it isn't any of my business and I respect you as a human being" kind of a way, where all that is required to be part of the community of people is simply that, not judging, not being a jerk. That's why I'm in the community that I am in. But we honor the old gay communities because that's where the roots are at. Leather history is gay community history, and I see what they now call "Pan Leather" as a good thing because it is people of diverse backgrounds, identities, and orientations, embracing a healthier and more respectful, supportive, accepting mindset. My group, despite including plenty of straight folks, will have a presence at Pride this year. But we don't forget where Pride started. The allies don't show up to take over the event, they show up to honor people that they consider to be family, and to add support in greater numbers.
Exactly. I'm not sure if it is a good thing or not, that other very marginalized groups will capitalize on the momentum of the gay community's efforts. I can see good in it. I guess it's kind of how you look at it, no?
Really my annoyance about the acronym is just a matter of cumbersome semantics. At this point my world feels more like, over there, you have the jerks. And over here, there are the...what...P.W.A.J.?...lol "People Who Aren't Jerks." Like really that's all I need to know. If a person is cool to others, I can be cool to them. Easy.
What makes them "genderfluid or non-binary", because they say they are? What does that even mean anyways? You can't just have a penis on Tuesdays, the weekends, and every other holiday. You say its just fine, because they "came up with new words." Its not about the words, its the concept. So If I identify myself as part demigod, want you to worship me, and donate your possessions to me to free yourself, you would be all inclusive?
You want people to be open-minded and accepting of others, but not of themselves. I'm sure there are people who think life is easy, but I don't know any of them. I not only have a problem with transgender, I have a problem with people being so ridiculously out of touch, and unaccepting of their own reality, to think they can create a new path of gender to better suit their own wants.
What makes them "genderfluid or non-binary", because they say they are? What does that even mean anyways? You can't just have a penis on Tuesdays, the weekends, and every other holiday. You say its just fine, because they "came up with new words." Its not about the words, its the concept. So If I identify myself as part demigod, want you to worship me, and donate your possessions to me to free yourself, you would be all inclusive?
You want people to be open-minded and accepting of others, but not of themselves. I'm sure there are people who think life is easy, but I don't know any of them. I not only have a problem with transgender, I have a problem with people being so ridiculously out of touch, and unaccepting of their own reality, to think they can create a new path of gender to better suit their own wants.
First of all, go check out the science. There are people who are intersex, whose gender as not as neatly defined as you may believe it ought to be. And they are born that way. And some of the differences are in the chromosomes or the brain function. They did brain scans on children who identified as transgender recently, and you know what? Their brain activity was actually more like that of the gender they identified as, not the one they were born.
Does what's in your pants completely define everything about you? The core of your being? I find that disgustingly simplistic in terms of how layered, complex, and beautiful human beings can be. You wanna be a simple person whose every meaningful facet of personality is tied to the plumbing you were born with, that's fine, and no one is trying to stop you. Which is why I do not understand why you would state the bolded part. How exactly, does accepting someone else and affording them basic human dignity no matter what gender they identify with, in ANY way, imply you are not allowed to be accepting of yourself?
You're drawing very false parallels that imply that a person's choices about THEIR OWN identity somehow inflict hardship on you. When they do not. Your "accept me as a demigod and give me all of your possessions" thing is a fine example of that. A trans person says, "I identify as a woman. I use feminine pronouns." And OOOHHH, AAAAGGGGH, cry to the Heavens and collapse in agony, you have been IMPOSED upon in such a dire manner! It's just exactly like being expected to hand over everything you own! Why! It is just that bad! Seriously what does whatever I say that I am, have anything to do with you? How does it affect you...at all? Like you could literally come and tell me you identify as a demigod and I'd be like, "Alright." But you don't get to take a damn thing from me, ...wait for it... Just like trans people don't want anything from you. Believe it or not. Other than to be allowed to live their lives.
Yes, what makes a gender fluid or non-binary person is just that, they said they were. There might be something biological going on there, or genetic, or neurochemical, or not. It very simply just isn't any of your business, or mine. "But what's in their pants?" Um...who cares? Who's asking? How is that your business? I don't think that strangers need to evaluate the characteristics of other strangers' genitals in deciding how to treat them. Hell, I have seen some manly looking (bio) women who still identified as women, and some really feminine (bio) men who still identified as men, I'm talking the "cis het" type of people who simply had characteristics and mannerisms that did not match their gender, and I don't see society in general demanding to inspect their packages just to make sure. You really wanna go there?
Is it really that difficult to just treat people like people? Hasn't cost me anything yet.
First of all, go check out the science. There are people who are intersex, whose gender as not as neatly defined as you may believe it ought to be. And they are born that way. And some of the differences are in the chromosomes or the brain function. They did brain scans on children who identified as transgender recently, and you know what? Their brain activity was actually more like that of the gender they identified as, not the one they were born.
Hermaphrodite is not the same thing as transgender. Are you trying to refer to children as in pre-pubescent, brains haven't developed yet, thoughts haven't developed, they are barely figuring out a thought process, children?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
Does what's in your pants completely define everything about you? The core of your being? I find that disgustingly simplistic in terms of how layered, complex, and beautiful human beings can be. You wanna be a simple person whose every meaningful facet of personality is tied to the plumbing you were born with, that's fine, and no one is trying to stop you. Which is why I do not understand why you would state the bolded part.
Didn't realize you needed every different aspect of anatomy spelled out for you. I was thinking we were having a discussion, and now you're arguing semantics. To me; the problem you have is: you're stereotyping gender. You believe men and women have different roles in life, and are not able to do or accomplish the same thing. Its not about a man or a woman carrying a purse or working construction, its about someone trying to pass themselves off as the other gender so that OTHER PEOPLE see them differently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
How exactly, does accepting someone else and affording them basic human dignity no matter what gender they identify with, in ANY way, imply you are not allowed to be accepting of yourself?
Try wording that again. Its not me that feels the need to change my gender, I'M the one that accepts myself for who I am. I live with my actions, and try to learn from them. I understand there are certain basic principles of life that I can not change. I don't expect the world to change everything to suit me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
You're drawing very false parallels that imply that a person's choices about THEIR OWN identity somehow inflict hardship on you. When they do not.
They do if they are put into the right situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
Your "accept me as a demigod and give me all of your possessions" thing is a fine example of that. A trans person says, "I identify as a woman. I use feminine pronouns."
Feminine pronouns? Again, you're trying to justify your argument with a sexist reason.
Just because they say they are, that means everyone is expected to take them at their word? People can't agree on God, evolution, birth control, politics, raising children Et frickin CETERA..... Yet you think people are supposed to just be accepting of a new gender that defies the basics of all known biology, just because some people say it is??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
And OOOHHH, AAAAGGGGH, cry to the Heavens and collapse in agony, you have been IMPOSED upon in such a dire manner! It's just exactly like being expected to hand over everything you own! Why! It is just that bad! Seriously what does whatever I say that I am, have anything to do with you? How does it affect you...at all? Like you could literally come and tell me you identify as a demigod and I'd be like, "Alright." But you don't get to take a damn thing from me, ...wait for it... Just like trans people don't want anything from you. Believe it or not. Other than to be allowed to live their lives.
NOT TRUE! They want to "be treated like everyone else", they want to pass off as if they are equal in sports, in the bathrooms, and there are more, but that's enough.
You're also making ignorant assumptions about what someone who "identifies (that's one), as the other gender says, as if its the same thing someone of that gender says" (that's two). Its not. I have talked to a transgender man to woman before. They said things that a man would say as a woman, not things a woman says.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
Yes, what makes a gender fluid or non-binary person is just that, they said they were. There might be something biological going on there, or genetic, or neurochemical, or not. It very simply just isn't any of your business, or mine. "But what's in their pants?" Um...who cares? Who's asking? How is that your business? I don't think that strangers need to evaluate the characteristics of other strangers' genitals in deciding how to treat them. Hell, I have seen some manly looking (bio) women who still identified as women, and some really feminine (bio) men who still identified as men, I'm talking the "cis het" type of people who simply had characteristics and mannerisms that did not match their gender, and I don't see society in general demanding to inspect their packages just to make sure. You really wanna go there?
Is it really that difficult to just treat people like people? Hasn't cost me anything yet.
Most of your comment is you stereotyping men and women. People are different, but they can do the same things. You stated several times that genders have their own "roles to play". That's just sexist to me. The other is you trying to justify that someone can create a new gender type by saying they are. You think you're being inclusive, and I think you're trying to hard not to alienate that you're not using common sense.
Here's how I will try to say it; I don't care if someone is poor or rich, but if you tell me you're rich when you're poor, THERE ARE TIMES when it will matter.
What makes them "genderfluid or non-binary", because they say they are? What does that even mean anyways? You can't just have a penis on Tuesdays, the weekends, and every other holiday. You say its just fine, because they "came up with new words." Its not about the words, its the concept. So If I identify myself as part demigod, want you to worship me, and donate your possessions to me to free yourself, you would be all inclusive?
You want people to be open-minded and accepting of others, but not of themselves. I'm sure there are people who think life is easy, but I don't know any of them. I not only have a problem with transgender, I have a problem with people being so ridiculously out of touch, and unaccepting of their own reality, to think they can create a new path of gender to better suit their own wants.
The biological basis of sex mismatch is not new, nor limited to humans. We know of many, many conditions where genetic sex and phenotypic sex (both internal and external) do not match. It is not remotely odd to think sexual identity might not match either of those as well.
For example, there is a condition, 5 alpha reductace mutation, where infants are born genetically male and externally completely female. Then when they hit puberty, the majority of them become completely, functionally, physically male. The thing is, even as young children, the majority of them know they are boys. In fact a large proportion of these children know this despite living in remote regions where genetic testing is not available. They would have no way to know they are transgendered (well at least until puberty) except that there is an internal component to gender/sex separate and distinct from one's physical anatomy.
So if we know this can happen due to this particular pathway whose to say it can't from other means?
The biological basis of sex mismatch is not new, nor limited to humans. We know of many, many conditions where genetic sex and phenotypic sex (both internal and external) do not match. It is not remotely odd to think sexual identity might not match either of those as well.
For example, there is a condition, 5 alpha reductace mutation, where infants are born genetically male and externally completely female. Then when they hit puberty, the majority of them become completely, functionally, physically male. The thing is, even as young children, the majority of them know they are boys. In fact a large proportion of these children know this despite living in remote regions where genetic testing is not available. They would have no way to know they are transgendered (well at least until puberty) except that there is an internal component to gender/sex separate and distinct from one's physical anatomy.
So if we know this can happen due to this particular pathway whose to say it can't from other means?
I just read up on this. It says that they ARE MALES with genitalia that could be so small (micropenis) they could APPEAR to be female. That they had a disrupted development due to a lack of testosterone production. That gender development through and after adolescence has a large part to do with how they are raised.
I just read up on this. It says that they ARE MALES with genitalia that could be so small (micropenis) they could APPEAR to be female. That they had a disrupted development due to a lack of testosterone production. That gender development through and after adolescence has a large part to do with how they are raised.
"Many people with 5-alpha reductase deficiency are born with external genitalia that appear female. In other cases, the external genitalia do not look clearly male or clearly female (sometimes called ambiguous genitalia). Still other affected infants have genitalia that appear predominantly male, often with an unusually small penis (micropenis) and the urethra opening on the underside of the penis (hypospadias)."
Pretending that the very first description of the condition doesn't exist is intellectually disingenuous at best. A majority of these children are presumed female and are raised female. They are genetical male (as I stated in my other post) but not physically male. In fact families often do not realize these children are not female until the children themselves express such or they begin to develop male characteristics as they approach puberty.
Finally, the correct term, for conditions like these, is not abnormal but rather atypical.
Hermaphrodite is not the same thing as transgender. Are you trying to refer to children as in pre-pubescent, brains haven't developed yet, thoughts haven't developed, they are barely figuring out a thought process, children?
Didn't realize you needed every different aspect of anatomy spelled out for you. I was thinking we were having a discussion, and now you're arguing semantics. To me; the problem you have is: you're stereotyping gender. You believe men and women have different roles in life, and are not able to do or accomplish the same thing. Its not about a man or a woman carrying a purse or working construction, its about someone trying to pass themselves off as the other gender so that OTHER PEOPLE see them differently.
Try wording that again. Its not me that feels the need to change my gender, I'M the one that accepts myself for who I am. I live with my actions, and try to learn from them. I understand there are certain basic principles of life that I can not change. I don't expect the world to change everything to suit me.
They do if they are put into the right situation.
Feminine pronouns? Again, you're trying to justify your argument with a sexist reason.
Just because they say they are, that means everyone is expected to take them at their word? People can't agree on God, evolution, birth control, politics, raising children Et frickin CETERA..... Yet you think people are supposed to just be accepting of a new gender that defies the basics of all known biology, just because some people say it is??
NOT TRUE! They want to "be treated like everyone else", they want to pass off as if they are equal in sports, in the bathrooms, and there are more, but that's enough.
You're also making ignorant assumptions about what someone who "identifies (that's one), as the other gender says, as if its the same thing someone of that gender says" (that's two). Its not. I have talked to a transgender man to woman before. They said things that a man would say as a woman, not things a woman says.
Most of your comment is you stereotyping men and women. People are different, but they can do the same things. You stated several times that genders have their own "roles to play". That's just sexist to me. The other is you trying to justify that someone can create a new gender type by saying they are. You think you're being inclusive, and I think you're trying to hard not to alienate that you're not using common sense.
Here's how I will try to say it; I don't care if someone is poor or rich, but if you tell me you're rich when you're poor, THERE ARE TIMES when it will matter.
I have not at any point in time, EVER, said that the genders had roles to play. You are making things up and saying that I said them, and I did not now or ever. And you're proving repeatedly that you don't understand a damn thing I'm saying to you.
Gender identity is one thing.
Sexual orientation is another thing.
Gender expression or gender "performance" is another thing.
A person's chosen pronouns are yet another thing.
And what's in somebody's pants doesn't have to dictate any of it.
Yes, there are medical and scientific reasons why someone's gender could be ambiguous. But it really doesn't matter if there are, or not, with an individual. Within that one person's little bubble of reality they live in, they should have the power to self-define. No, they don't get to behave in coercive or unethical ways toward others, which you seem utterly convinced that people will. But I mean, look at the entire concept of religion, ok? We've got a lot of different religions in this country, and there are Catholics who insist that theirs is the one true way, and there are Jewish people who insistently believe that their religion is the one and only truth, the Mormons come to my door and try to convert me from time to time, we've got Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, atheists, and people who ironically worship a Spaghetti Monster. And we all sort of accept, more or less, that whatever you believe is fine so long as you don't get in my face with it and try to demand that I join your cult, whatever cult that might be. You do you. I'll do me. You leave me be, and I'll leave you be, and we can both use a public restroom without flinging pamphlets at one another and it'll be great.
So if someone born of any gender, because I don't really care and I'm not asking, presents as very androgynous, and introduces themselves to me as non-binary in their gender, and asks me to use they/them/their pronouns... If I wish to interact with them, then I'm going to do that and just respect that it's their life, and having no gender is their jam. Yeah. I really figure nobody knows the intricacies of who and what they are better than they themselves do.
I don't care about sports. Sports are, to me, a bunch of bread & circuses BS so they can figure out how they want to regulate their sportsball as they please, I really don't care. Trans women competing against cis women? Don't care.
I'm a woman and I frequent a few places in my community that have gender neutral public restrooms. I've been in the restroom with trans people and with men, and it has yet to be a problem. People are generally in there to urinate.
And the only area where trans rights and bathroom considerations matter as far as I am concerned, is in schools. But my thought is, kids should really have more privacy in both restrooms and locker rooms anyways. Always should have had. Making kids strip around one another and shower together when they're going through the most awkward and vulnerable time of their lives, whether they consent to or not, is like a form of psychological torture as far as I'm concerned that no one should have to deal with. Building adequate facilities should not be a problem, or it wouldn't be if our backwards-arse country put the resources into education that we ought. But that is another debate entirely.
Although gender identity and sexual orientation are separate, I believe one reason the T is part of the LGB community, is because many trans individuals identified as gay either before or after they came to term with their gender identity. Most of trans individuals that I know that have shared their past, are FtM, and identified as lesbian before identifying as trans.
On the other hand I know of one MtF, that lived much of their adult life as a straight married male. Since transitioning to female that individual is still with their life long female spouse. I also know of one FtM that once identified as a lesbian but now since transition to male is now attracted to men.
Sexual orientation and gender identity are separate things. Wanting to marry a person of the same sex is different from wanting to transition genders. But, I think on balance there is enough overlap that they belong together.
1) Both have historically been stigmatized communities that have suffered discrimination for violating "social norms" or "Biblical traditions" on gender roles.
2) Although there are differences between sexual orientation and gender identity, many gays and lesbians challenge traditional gender sterotypes and many transgender people are in same sex relationships either pre or post transition.
2) The LGB community is small and the T community is tiny, so it wouldn't be efficient or practical to build out duplicate organizations specifically focused on transgender issues.
3) Both communities have the same end goals. Both are fighting for equal treatment and the idea that we should be free to live in a way that is most natural to us.
this debate went off topic, generated inappropriate and insufficient responses, and now is closed.
Sonic Spork - apologies for deleting your orphaned posts responding to insufficient or inappropriate posts. Your contributions were thoughtful and constructive. Your rep points are not affected by this action.
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