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...or...is there a debate at all? (Figured I'd post it in "Great debates)
I only write this because recently had a handful of female friends on social media post about how ashamed they are of their OWN friends on Facebook are calling the "reporting sexual assault 30 years later to be hogwash". That their friends are dismissing that if they came out with it this late, it was probably consensual and it was just regret sex or something.
(This happens when the guy has sex, and doesn't call her back and SHE calls it rape).
They are upset that their OWN friends find fault with women waiting so long to report it.
It's like "Shame on you for doubting them!"
Be honest, would you seriously block or unfriend, even in real life, your friends that you know on Facebook that have lacked empathy towards the victims coming forward decades later? Does it shock you that many are in opposition against those who come forward with their experiences?
Sexual assault is a terrible crime. I don't believe in a 'boys will be boys' mentality. Those who commit sexual assault should face severe punishment. When I was single, I never treated the women I dated in the fashion described in Ford's account.
So don't twist what I'm about to say around.
I'm neither conservative nor Republican. I wouldn't vote for Donald Trump with a gun to my head. But I can't help but be bothered by the entire incident for a host of reasons.
First, saying "I believe her" has little bearing on the validity of Ford's claims. It might have happened precisely the way she claimed. It might have not. But there is absolutely no possible way to determine this. None. It's important to note that Ford can't remember where the party in question took place, and three of her supposed witnesses -- one among them a woman -- deny being in attendance. I mean, can you remember the sequence of events at a party you attended 35 years ago with perfect clarity? I can't. Yet, simply accepting this account as the Gospel is tantamount to accepting it as evidence.
Yet there have been many cases of fraudulent sexual assault accusations, ranging from the Scottsboro Boys to the Duke lacrosse team to, most recently, two Sacred Heart football players. https://www.ctpost.com/news/article/...e-12969059.php
And there are plenty of other cases. Heck, in my own city, an assistant principal was accused a few years ago of statutory rape by a student. Despite the fact that the student later recanted, she is still trying to have her record expunged to reflect her innocence. Her career was effectively destroyed, despite being completely innocent. https://www.al.com/news/birmingham/i...f_the_day.html
What's more, let's not forget that this is an accusation that was weaponized to achieve a political end. I note that Keith Ellison's accuser has not gotten the limelight the way Kavanaugh's has.
So demanding that the standards of evidence be set aside in the case of sexual assault not only is extraordinary, but it creates the opportunity for all kinds of mischief. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you.
To answer your specific question, no I would not unfriend anyone over this. Like most issues, there are multiple valid viewpoints, and I find myself torn.
On one hand, I would want to believe a woman who says she was raped, because I don't want to "add insult to injury" by calling her a liar. But on the other hand, our legal system is built solidly on a presumption of innocence until proven guilty, so when decades have passed, it is likely that the accused will not be found guilty in court.
Unfortunately, because many women have avoided reporting rape in the past, we have a lot of men who simply got away with it. Women need to be compassionately but firmly taught, starting here and now, that rape must be reported immediately, while evidence is still available. The victims need to be treated compassionately when they do report. Moving forward, there should (ideally) never be one of these decades-later accusations. That's the only way I see this issue being solved.
(And of course, IDEALLY there would be no rapes at all, but crime is a part of this imperfect world.)
To answer your specific question, no I would not unfriend anyone over this. Like most issues, there are multiple valid viewpoints, and I find myself torn.
On one hand, I would want to believe a woman who says she was raped, because I don't want to "add insult to injury" by calling her a liar. But on the other hand, our legal system is built solidly on a presumption of innocence until proven guilty, so when decades have passed, it is likely that the accused will not be found guilty in court.
Unfortunately, because many women have avoided reporting rape in the past, we have a lot of men who simply got away with it. Women need to be compassionately but firmly taught, starting here and now, that rape must be reported immediately, while evidence is still available. The victims need to be treated compassionately when they do report. Moving forward, there should (ideally) never be one of these decades-later accusations. That's the only way I see this issue being solved.
(And of course, IDEALLY there would be no rapes at all, but crime is a part of this imperfect world.)
Let me ask you this. Are the women coming out with this years later expecting legal action to be taken against said perp or is it just only for the purpose of awareness that it DOES happen?
Let me ask you this. Are the women coming out with this years later expecting legal action to be taken against said perp or is it just only for the purpose of awareness that it DOES happen?
I had a friend who revealed something about 15 years later and as far as I know it only made things worse for her because the alleged perpetrator was her best friend’s brother. It happened in college. She didn’t expect any sort of legal action, but this was a woman who had clearly been traumatized by something in her earlier life. She was not well mentally at any point when I knew her. She passed away under mysterious circumstances earlier this year. I do not know if it was suicide.
Let me ask you this. Are the women coming out with this years later expecting legal action to be taken against said perp or is it just only for the purpose of awareness that it DOES happen?
I can't presume to know why any specific woman would tell her story years later. In the case of Dr. Ford, my guess would be that it has been very hard for her to see Kavanaugh being praised as a great man, deserving of sitting on the highest court of the land, knowing what he (allegedly) did to her in the past. I'm sure you're aware, if you've been following the news, that Dr Ford started discussing the incident with her therapist back in 2012. So it's not like she just made it up to prevent Kavanaugh from being confirmed.
In general, my guess would be that women are starting to tell their stories because they know how their silence affected their lives. I think they want something better for the women of today and tomorrow. I think they must surely recognize that conviction of their attacker is unlikely, but perhaps they hope to change the climate, the stigma against the victim, and what they assumed would be a traumatic and likely ineffective experience of reporting.
To answer your specific question, no I would not unfriend anyone over this. Like most issues, there are multiple valid viewpoints, and I find myself torn.
On one hand, I would want to believe a woman who says she was raped, because I don't want to "add insult to injury" by calling her a liar. But on the other hand, our legal system is built solidly on a presumption of innocence until proven guilty, so when decades have passed, it is likely that the accused will not be found guilty in court.
Unfortunately, because many women have avoided reporting rape in the past, we have a lot of men who simply got away with it. Women need to be compassionately but firmly taught, starting here and now, that rape must be reported immediately, while evidence is still available. The victims need to be treated compassionately when they do report. Moving forward, there should (ideally) never be one of these decades-later accusations. That's the only way I see this issue being solved.
(And of course, IDEALLY there would be no rapes at all, but crime is a part of this imperfect world.)
I think you've stated this pretty well.
1. Rape and sexual assault are wrong. Period. There's should be no "boys will be boys" attitude about this.
2. I believe in a statute of limitations on all crimes because prosecutors should not be able to charge someone with a crime that was committed so long in the past that evidence "has not deteriorated with time". To do otherwise makes it questionable whether or not we can uphold the principle that one is innocent until proven guilty.
3. When a person has failed to report a crime again herself or himself -- regardless of what that crime is -- it seems to me that that person has given up their right to redress in the issue. I understand that there may be very understandable reasons why a person doesn't report a crime. But that's still a choice they made.
4. But in this particular case that I think we're talking about, Judge Kavanaugh's personal freedom is not at stake. He's no different than any other person who seeks a job. He doesn't have a right to that job. He's really just a person being interviewed. I don't like Kavanaugh for his political views. But I'm also concerned that there seems to be an awfully lot in his past involving both sex and alcohol that make me not want him confirmed to a "for life" position on the Supreme Court. I think we can do better.
5. To those who think that it's unfair because they allegations are not proven: Then I assume you'll want a thorough investigation, and no one is honest can say that the Senate or the President is assuring that a thorough investigation is taking place.
1. Rape and sexual assault are wrong. Period. There's should be no "boys will be boys" attitude about this.
2. I believe in a statute of limitations on all crimes because prosecutors should not be able to charge someone with a crime that was committed so long in the past that evidence "has not deteriorated with time". To do otherwise makes it questionable whether or not we can uphold the principle that one is innocent until proven guilty.
3. When a person has failed to report a crime again herself or himself -- regardless of what that crime is -- it seems to me that that person has given up their right to redress in the issue. I understand that there may be very understandable reasons why a person doesn't report a crime. But that's still a choice they made.
4. But in this particular case that I think we're talking about, Judge Kavanaugh's personal freedom is not at stake. He's no different than any other person who seeks a job. He doesn't have a right to that job. He's really just a person being interviewed. I don't like Kavanaugh for his political views. But I'm also concerned that there seems to be an awfully lot in his past involving both sex and alcohol that make me not want him confirmed to a "for life" position on the Supreme Court. I think we can do better.
5. To those who think that it's unfair because they allegations are not proven: Then I assume you'll want a thorough investigation, and no one is honest can say that the Senate or the President is assuring that a thorough investigation is taking place.
I won't get into points 1-3 but I very much agree with your points 4 and 5. People are conflating getting a prison sentence with getting a job. I've heard nothing said that he will even suffer any possible repercussions with his CURRENT position.
In other positions ("at will employment") employers can very nearly hire anyone they want outside of running afoul of some extremely narrow discrimination rules. So just as they COULD let all this go and welcome him aboard, they'd be perfectly justified in dismissing his candidacy based on the POSSIBILITY or APPEARANCE of wrongdoing - happens all.the.time in the real world. Interestingly in some practice sessions over the weekend he was very irritated at and refused to answer a number of questions about his drinking and other "personal" behavior - probably similar to what he wanted to ask Clinton way back when.
But, I think he's shown enough evasion and dishonesty in his other responses to throw a good amount of doubt on giving him a lifetime appointment.
I can't presume to know why any specific woman would tell her story years later. In the case of Dr. Ford, my guess would be that it has been very hard for her to see Kavanaugh being praised as a great man, deserving of sitting on the highest court of the land, knowing what he (allegedly) did to her in the past. I'm sure you're aware, if you've been following the news, that Dr Ford started discussing the incident with her therapist back in 2012. So it's not like she just made it up to prevent Kavanaugh from being confirmed.
In general, my guess would be that women are starting to tell their stories because they know how their silence affected their lives. I think they want something better for the women of today and tomorrow. I think they must surely recognize that conviction of their attacker is unlikely, but perhaps they hope to change the climate, the stigma against the victim, and what they assumed would be a traumatic and likely ineffective experience of reporting.
I knew of a burlesque performer the MeToo back fire on her.
Apparently, she reported the stage producer for sexual assault for a make-out session they had when they were both buzzed. Not even sex. She recently went to FB to say his full name and what he did.
He is suing her for slander, as he knows it was a fully consensual situation. He even has evidence of her sending him Valentines Day cards with her lipstick on it, with rather intimate messages. So she doesn't have a leg to stand on and is broke.
Now she's begging friends for money a la a GoFundMe account (up to 32 grand now), and you wouldn't believe the amount of people she has feeling sorry for her, to help pay for a lawyer. Her Facebook page has her really whining about how she has a crappy life, and even posted a "wish list" for suckers to try to buy her material items.
Quote:
2. I believe in a statute of limitations on all crimes because prosecutors should not be able to charge someone with a crime that was committed so long in the past that evidence "has not deteriorated with time". To do otherwise makes it questionable whether or not we can uphold the principle that one is innocent until proven guilty.
Murder is the only exception that has NO statute of limitations.
I'm neither conservative nor Republican. I wouldn't vote for Donald Trump with a gun to my head. But I can't help but be bothered by the entire incident for a host of reasons.
+1 to that. I'm afraid the last few weeks have done tremendous damage to the #meto movement. Originally, it was about outing monsters like Weinstien and Cosby. Now its morphed into making unsubstantiated claims for political reasons.
Its also concerning the radical shift in what constitutes "assault". I can't tell you how many college parties I attended where a drunken man or woman flashed parts of their body I didn't care to see. I didn't feel assaulted; I felt embarrassed for the person that had over-indulged. Also, an unwanted kiss now constitutes sexual assault. I have to admit that there was a time or two where I misread the messages and kissed someone. It was apparent the kiss was unwanted and I immediately backed off. The one case I most vividly remember, my shame and disappointment was much worse than the other person's experience of brushing me off. Its crazy to think that decades later this incident could be redefined as sexual assault.
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