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Old 01-22-2010, 05:52 PM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
11,446 posts, read 16,185,973 times
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Why Do Americans Have Such Problems Learning Their Own Language?
To make it clear I am designating those born and raised in America.
I'm sure everyone has encountered a variety of common language mistakes that Americans make daily. Many Americans have difficulty with spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc.
It not unusual to find foreign born people that have a much better command of the language than Americans.
I don't know where Americans rate on the literacy scale.
Why is this so? Is it because correct language usage is not emphasized enough at home, or in school, or in our society? Is it because the students don't value learning the language? Is it because the schools have lowered the bar?
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Old 01-22-2010, 06:33 PM
 
Location: A Nation Possessed
25,738 posts, read 18,809,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visvaldis View Post
It not unusual to find foreign born people that have a much better command of the language than Americans.
This is because it's still typical for an ESL student to study the structure and grammar of the English language intensively when learning it. Most learners, who have been paying attention, can tell you more about English grammar than native speakers. I work around ESL instructors; over half of them are non-native English speakers. Typically they speak three or four languages. People can crow all they want to about grammar being a useless topic--one needs only listen and read to question the truth of that mindset.

For whatever reason, our culture places very little value on linguistic skill--even for our own language--which, of course, translates to lack of knowledge. Grammar isn't even taught much in the public school system any more. If and when we English speakers do want to learn a foreign language, 90% of the instructional material available is watered down garbage. There is no rigor--there can't be because we don't even properly 'know' our own language to begin with. How can we be expected to learn other languages properly?

On the other hand, linguistically speaking, much of the 'trashy English' you hear or read now will be accepted and proper in 50 years. A proper speaker from 150 years ago would probably consider our usage downright vulgar. For better or worse, language changes over time.
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Old 01-22-2010, 07:29 PM
 
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i remember in seventh grade, my english teacher scolded me for using big words or too many adjectives. she said to keep it concise and to the point. she was of a much older generation. the nuance and complexity of expression is looked on as being 'uppity' in today's society and contrary to popular belief, it's not necessarily younger generations that are responsible for it. i think it has to do with the fact, in past generations, commoners or lower-class came into some level of power to subvert in some way.
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Old 01-22-2010, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,554 posts, read 86,977,099 times
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There are two characteristics of English that might contribute to this.

First, there is no formal body that has the authority to declare a usage to be correct or not. By contrast, one using French cannot deviate from the rules set out by the Academe Francaise, or you will be flat out wrong. That is the case in most languages, but in English, you can say anything you like, and it is "correct" if it can be understood. The Americans made it anathema to speak of "the King's English" as prescriptive. The Argentine Jorje Luis Borges wrote poetry in English because poetic license is prohibited in Spanish. Even if intended to be artistic, it is simply wrong, and invariably leaves even middle-class speakers shaking their heads as it grates on their ears.

Second, English words do not fit neatly and inviolably into parts of speech. In English, you can tree a bear, or machine a tool. A movie feature can be a short and you can catch a cold. This gives English speakers wide latitude to deviate from standards, and it is the acceptance of these variances that accounts for much of what the erudite see as incorrect English. The language can be made colorful by making it wrong, and the boundaries are fuzzy and permissive.
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Old 01-22-2010, 08:47 PM
 
Location: The Land of Reason
13,221 posts, read 12,320,851 times
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American English first of all is a bastard language, meaning that it is comprised of many different languages and dialects. To prove my point have you ever hear someone from Boston and the deep south talk to each other? Granted (in theory) they speak the same language but they would find it hard to understand one another.

It is still funny to think about though
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Old 01-22-2010, 08:56 PM
 
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The literacy rate for the U.S. as of 2009 is reputed to be 99%. I'm not under the impression that most Americans have trouble with language. Sure, I see grammatical errors in written work and hear colloquialisms in conversations, both of which sometimes make me a little crazy, but they don't strike me as being indicative of a significant failure to use American English effectively on the part of those involved.
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Old 01-22-2010, 09:25 PM
 
404 posts, read 1,094,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visvaldis View Post
Why Do Americans Have Such Problems Learning Their Own Language?
To make it clear I am designating those born and raised in America.
I'm sure everyone has encountered a variety of common language mistakes that Americans make daily. Many Americans have difficulty with spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc.
It not unusual to find foreign born people that have a much better command of the language than Americans.
I don't know where Americans rate on the literacy scale.
Why is this so? Is it because correct language usage is not emphasized enough at home, or in school, or in our society? Is it because the students don't value learning the language? Is it because the schools have lowered the bar?
Which Americans? There's certain Americans who decide that they must identify with their "culture" by rejecting normal spoken American english. When I say that, I'm not referring to recent immigrants....

These same people complain about not being fairly evaluated for job openings, but never stop to consider their rejection of civil norms. </getting off my soapbox>
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Old 01-22-2010, 11:57 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,554 posts, read 86,977,099 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime View Post
American English first of all is a bastard language, meaning that it is comprised of many different languages and dialects. To prove my point have you ever hear someone from Boston and the deep south talk to each other? Granted (in theory) they speak the same language but they would find it hard to understand one another.

It is still funny to think about though
Spoken language and written language are two very different things. If you had a court reporter make a transcript of your conversation between the Bostonian and the Southerner, an Indian working a call center would be able to read it and understand it perfectly. They simply pronounce the same words differently. In that sense, American English is absolutely identical to the English written anywhere in the world, and Americans speak written-English vocabulary in written-English grammar, but pronounce it in various ways.

I once heard a recording of a Thai exporter talking on the phone with a Polish importer about their business transaction, and it was in English, their only common language. I did not understand a single word of it,but they obviously understood each other. There is this weird business-English that is used all over the world, and I think it is distilled down to a reduced number of phonemes that are common to most languages.

English is a great deal more complicated than it needs to be, and much of it can be left out without reducing its comprehenisbility.
Fro eplmaxe, in tihs snteecne, yuo hvae no tourlbe rdeniag it, eevn thgooh teh lterets of hte wdors aer lal mxied up.
N fct, ll th vwls cn b rmvd, nd y cn stll rd t wth vry lttl dffclty.
If no verbs, no problem, all still clear, communications as usual.

The Voice of America broadcasts entire newscasts in "Special English", which uses only a 1,500 word vocabulary. I think the average American teenager can go through an entire summer vacation on a 100 word vocabulary.

Last edited by jtur88; 01-23-2010 at 12:17 AM..
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Old 01-23-2010, 06:04 AM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,232 posts, read 46,658,013 times
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There is a body to determine proper English usage in writing, I believe it's called the MLA. Strunk and White also come to mind for some reason.

I think the major reason is that people really do not care--they just want to get their message across. If they can do so with a new buzzword that is only starting to catch on, so much the better. What if people wrote as they spoke? It might be...something like...this style of writing. (Trying to channel Shatner, if you hadn't guessed.)
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Old 01-23-2010, 06:27 AM
 
2,015 posts, read 3,380,925 times
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English has many exceptions to the rules. That's why it is so hard to foreigners to learn.

I've heard many people - Dutch and English mainly - who bash Americans as lazy speakers. A few of their examples: dunno, coulda, woulda, wadder, twunnie. But I'm sure they must do some of the same things as well.
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