Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Green Living
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-14-2019, 05:45 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
7,259 posts, read 5,135,660 times
Reputation: 17757

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post

When you have removed the mandates and subsidies, come see me with your arguments.

Additionally, Germany can get away with their politically aimed Energiewende because they have the rest of Europe to dump off their periodic excess production (at great expense to German rate payers). If all of Europe were using mostly unreliables like 'Germany, there would be no sink to act as safety valve for the grid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Once again, talking out of your ass.

40% of those imports are from Canada and another 7% from Mexico...

Most of those imports come here because we have the refineries. After refining, most of it is exported to end users.


It's a little more complicated than barrels in vs barrels out. Crude from different sources has different capabilities and uses (sweet vs sour, heavy vs light etc), so we can't use all of the products we produce or refine here and also need more of certain products than we produce.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-14-2019, 10:13 AM
 
41,813 posts, read 51,051,710 times
Reputation: 17864
Quote:
Originally Posted by corydon View Post
But crude price is set world wide.

It's based on supply and US producers have driven the supply up, OPEC no longer has the influence it had in the past. More importantly for the US that supply is now safely within our borders.


Quote:
The latest wind turbines pay for themself in 6 months.......

If they are that fantastically cheap then clearly it's time to stop subsidizing them and lift mandates.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-14-2019, 10:14 AM
 
41,813 posts, read 51,051,710 times
Reputation: 17864
Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
Most of those imports come here because we have the refineries. After refining, most of it is exported to end users.

That graph is based on source of oil we consume.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-14-2019, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Minnysoda
10,659 posts, read 10,727,332 times
Reputation: 6745
Quote:
Originally Posted by corydon View Post
But crude price is set world wide.

The latest wind turbines pay for themself in 6 months.......
Are you kidding me??????
LMP's (Locational marginal price) In the MISO foot print averages somewhere south of 40 bucks per mwh.... That's what utility's pay and or get paid for energy. IF you have a 62 buck per mwh PPA with a wind developer you never make money on wind.....You can' curtail it but the make whole clause in your PPA forces you to pay regardless. The thing you avoid by curtailing wind are MISO RSG charges...... No is making money of wind unless it's the developer, in our case that would be the French.....Our gas plants run cheaper then our wind contracts.....
Study this interactive map.........https://www.misoenergy.org/markets-a...time-displays/


Also pay attention to the fuel mix chart and then tell me how you will replace all that Fossil generation with wind. AND keep the lights on !!!!
https://www.misoenergy.org/


Also I will tell you the problem mentioned on this page was caused by wind....MISO is trying too figure how to explain the problem...

https://www.misoenergy.org/mcsnotification/?id=583
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-14-2019, 01:29 PM
 
Location: DC
6,848 posts, read 7,993,664 times
Reputation: 3572
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Once again, talking out of your ass.








40% of those imports are from Canada and another 7% from Mexico.. Both domestic production and imports from Canada are are on a upward trajectory and have been for about decade, imports from the rest of the world are going down. The US is now the leading producer of crude oil in the world.
That appear to a graph for March 2018

EIA report
crude production of about 9 million bbl/day for the year 2017. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_crd...c_mbblpd_a.htm
imports of 10 million bbl/day for the year 2017
https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_mov...0_mbblpd_a.htm
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-14-2019, 01:33 PM
 
Location: DC
6,848 posts, read 7,993,664 times
Reputation: 3572
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Once again you are talking out of your ass, the direct tax a German consumer pays for renewable energy is currently about 8 cents(US) per kWh. Germany guarantees renewable producers X rate because it's expensive and cannot compete with conventional sources, the wholesale rate is much lower than X. That 8 cents is used to make up the difference or in other words on top of the wholesale rate they are charging. That's before the other financial incentives like the feed in tariff's and the higher costs of conventional power driven by the use of solar and wind.





When you have removed the mandates and subsidies, come see me with your arguments.
As I said German policy is to make energy expensive to curb demand. They do that with taxes and feed in tariffs. Neither relevant to the US market. I don't need to see you with arguments. I'll just point out coal plants are being shut down in record numbers in the US.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-14-2019, 03:55 PM
 
6,503 posts, read 3,435,815 times
Reputation: 7903
Quote:
Originally Posted by dozerbear View Post
If that's the case, why do places with the most wind power have the highest prices?


A recent study in Germany showed that out of 56,000MW installed capacity, always-available wind generation was less than 1% of installed capacity. https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/energie/energiewende-nur-wenig-windstrom-ist-jederzeit-verfuegbar/23117568.html?share=fb&ticket=ST-108072-UyIbKTQMeDiGET4lis1h-ap3

A British study showed that wind turbines wear out faster than expected, going from a 24% load factor to only 11% after 15 years from onshore turbines. Offshore are even worse, with a load factor of 39% dropping to only 15% after 10 years. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ear...ays-study.html

Benefit to the environment is also very questionable, even in raw materials alone. Each turbine requires 1,420 tons of concrete, with 450 tons of reinforcing steel, 46,000 pounds of fiberglass/plastic in the blades, and 5,500 pounds of Neodymium in its generator. Neodymium is only mined in China, and has a devastating effect on the environment.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mos...ous-scale.html

This site estimates a carbon footprint of 242 tons of CO2 per turbine, and that doesn't include road building and excavation for the concrete pads, or assembly. https://stopthesethings.com/2014/08/...-wind-turbine/
Good LORD! 47 cents per kWh?

We pay 10 cents in my state. No peak rates, either.

I'm beginning to think that solar and wind might be great ways to fill a short term void in supply that can be diverted wherever needs it, but economically, only coal, nuclear, and hydro seem to keep production cheap so we don't end up like Australia...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-14-2019, 04:11 PM
 
Location: DC
6,848 posts, read 7,993,664 times
Reputation: 3572
My question is why the naysayers quote results from foreign countries when we have thosands of MW operating in the United States.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-14-2019, 04:13 PM
 
Location: DC
6,848 posts, read 7,993,664 times
Reputation: 3572
Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
Are you kidding me??????
LMP's (Locational marginal price) In the MISO foot print averages somewhere south of 40 bucks per mwh.... That's what utility's pay and or get paid for energy. IF you have a 62 buck per mwh PPA with a wind developer you never make money on wind.....You can' curtail it but the make whole clause in your PPA forces you to pay regardless. The thing you avoid by curtailing wind are MISO RSG charges...... No is making money of wind unless it's the developer, in our case that would be the French.....Our gas plants run cheaper then our wind contracts.....
Study this interactive map.........https://www.misoenergy.org/markets-a...time-displays/


Also pay attention to the fuel mix chart and then tell me how you will replace all that Fossil generation with wind. AND keep the lights on !!!!
https://www.misoenergy.org/


Also I will tell you the problem mentioned on this page was caused by wind....MISO is trying too figure how to explain the problem...

https://www.misoenergy.org/mcsnotification/?id=583
Big Rivers tells me they have wind that costs $25/MWH. Compare that to your MISO $40.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-14-2019, 04:21 PM
 
6,503 posts, read 3,435,815 times
Reputation: 7903
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
My question is why the naysayers quote results from foreign countries when we have thosands of MW operating in the United States.
Thousands of MW = GW, still a drop in the bucket for our nationwide demand for electricity.

Utilities threaten rate hikes for everything: sustainable energy projects, "aging infrastructure", storm repairs... So far my state has struck down rate hikes every time.

A typical utility wind turbine costs $4 million installed and can generate 2 MW. What's the ROI on that?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Green Living

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top