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Besides the education factor, Durham/Chapel Hill and Greenville have most stuff included in common, however I'll say there's two other areas that Durham/Chapel Hill takes the cake and eats it in Greenville's face on...
We get it - you don't like it in the Upstate. The question that comes to mind is why you remain here if you don't like it.......
I've lived in both areas and with the exception of public transit being better in the Triangle area, I disagree with pretty much all of your points.
We are answering the op's questions as best possible. No need to explain it to someone else who didn't start the thread. Opinions are just that. But as I said, I can count on one hand the people in the forum who feel negatively towards the area. That's a good record.
family-oriented community with lots of activities/services for kids (elementary age)
excellent public schools (for our other daughter - we can only afford 1 private school tuition)
good restaurants and cultural activities
ability to meet residents/families from a variety of places (i.e., did majority of people in Greenville grow up in South Carolina or has the presence of large companies brought in people from a variety of places? I'd welcome meeting Greenville natives, but always think it's more interesting to live in a place that is not entirely comprised of locals no matter where I am)
walkable or bikeable sections of city or surrounding communities
ability to take interesting weekend trips that are 2-4 hours away (I know Greenville has this one)
For those of you who have lived in or spent time in both areas, which area would you describe as more sophisticated? Which area has the least amount of suburban sprawl?
Also, while I know that some large corporations have set up home base in Greenville and provide a good business foundation, is there any network of start-up or incubator companies in Greenville? I know Durham has been fostering this type of thing. My husband and I both work in internet/online marketing roles. In reality, any business today has some kind of internet division, but my preference is to work with small or mid-size businesses.
Unlike some of your responders, I have lived in both areas. We lived in a small town south of Raleigh called Sanford for 7 years. Much of my family is from the Upstate we moved back recently for a job opportunity and to be closer to my mom.
From your list:
Family oriented activities - you will find a lot of family activities in either area. The Triangle has more museum and urban types of activities. With Raleigh being the state capital, there are a lot of state museums and such in the area. UNC Chapel Hill has a nice planetarium and some other similar activities. The Upstate has better outdoorsy activity opportunities. Lots more interesting natural things to explore here (hiking trails, waterfalls, mountain vistas, etc.)
Excellent Public Schools - taken on average, the schools in NC are better than those in SC. That would be using an awfully broad brush, though.
The schools in Orange County (where Chapel Hill is located) are pretty good in general. Wake County schools (where Raleigh, Cary, and Apex are located) are also pretty good in general. One word of caution about Wake County schools - the conservatives and liberals have been fighting for control of the school board there for a decade or more. The result has been a lot of movement of students around - I know people whose children have been in 4 schools in 5 years without ever moving. Some of the other schools in the Triangle are not so good.
In my opinion (which is backed by the SC school report cards) is that the best schools around Greenville are in the Riverside High area between Taylors and Greer. Anderson District One also has an excellent school district just west of Greenville in an area called Powdersville. Both of these schools are excellent.
Good Restaurants and Cultural Activities - the Traiangle will have more of both just because it has a larger population base. That being said, Greenville has an amazing selection of really good local restaurants for a town its size. Downtown has a bunch of 4-5 star places to eat. Cultural activities will depend on what you are looking for - both areas have their share of festivals and cultural stuff. Two fun ones in the Greenville area are the Greek festival and the Highland Festival. The Triangle has also has a greek festival and a highland festival at Campbell college nearby. Lots to do in either place.
Ability to meet residents/families from a variety of places - honestly there is plenty of this in either place. The triangle has attracted a lot of folks from other places to attend the universities there, work in the computer industry (IBM, SAS), or in the pharmaceutical industry (Glaxo, Novartis, Pfizer, etc.) One of the bedroom communities in the area - CARY - is jokingly called the Confinement Area for Relocated Yankees.
The Upstate has a lot of manufacturing that has brought folks from other places (Michelin, BMW, Bosch, Lockheed, GE) as well. I've been in downtown Greenville and listened to families talking to each other in French and German before. It makes it interesting for sure.
walkable or bikeable sections of city or surrounding communities - in the Triangle you have the American Tobacco trail and lots of places to walk on the UNC and NC State campuses. There are also quite a few parks in the area.
Greenville has the Swamp Rabbit Trail and a few parks. There are also nearby parks at Paris Mountain and Pleasant Ridge. Falls Park in downtown Greenville is in particular a very well done park.
ability to take interesting weekend trips that are 2-4 hours away - From the Triangle you can get to the beach in 3-4 hours depending on where you live. Some of the beaches north and south of Wilmington are pretty nice. The mountains are going to be 3-6 hours away depending on where you want to go. Boone is about 3 hours away from Chapel Hill and has some interesting places to visit. The NC Zoo is in Asheboro, an hour and a half or so from Chapel Hill.
From Greenville the beach is a bit further - more like 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 hours. Charleston is a very interesting coastal town to visit but no real beach there. Folly beach just south of there is nice. The mountains are obviously much closer to Greenville. The foothills of SC are less than an hour away. Great State parks at Table Rock, Ceasar's Head, and Jones Gap all provide lots of things to see. The bigger mountains of NC are still an easy drive with the Blue Ridge Parkway about an hour and a half away.
More sophisticated? Probably the Triangle area but there are trendy sophisticates and rednecks in both places, honestly.
Least amount of urban sprawl - now that is an impossible one. Both areas are TERRIBLE on this front. Anyone who has gotten lost in the sprawl that extends from Holly Springs through Apex, Cary, and into Raleigh knows that there is tons of sprawl in the Triangle. Some of the worst cookie cutter subdivisions piled on one another linked by boring strip malls you can imagine. North Raleigh is very similar. Chapel Hill and Hillsborough are better in this regard but that is largely due to local governments that have clamped down on growth. The Chapel Hill Mall is actually just over the line in Durham County because local regulation made it almost impossible to build one in Chapel Hill.
Greenville has had a lot of sprawling growth in the last few years. The area just southeast of Greenville around Simpsonville seems to have gotten the most of this type of sprawl. There are also areas near Easley and Powdersville that have some sprawl as well. Greenville has less sprawl overall but only because it is a smaller community.
Business foundation - the Triangle area has a number of big companies. They have a computer related cluster that got its genesis from the IBM campus there. IBM has been downsizing and outsourcing for years but many of their ex-employees have started other tech companies in the area. They also have a bio-tech and pharma cluster with Glaxo, Novartis, Biogen, and Pfizer all with facilities in the area. Biogen and Novartis are still growing but almost all of the others have been laying off folks in droves for 4-5 years. Anyhow, both of these clusters have attracted a lot of educated folks who have started a lot of businesses in the area.
The Upstate has a number of big companies as well but with more of a manufacturing orientation. The big players include Michelin, BMW, GE, Bosch, Lockheed, and Fluor. Not all of these jobs are blue collar - there are lots of engineers and scientists working for these companies as well. There are a lot of smaller businesses here as well but you will probably see more of a manufacturing focus.
Which area is better? I can say without a doubt that it 100% depends on who you are.
NC in general provides a lot more government services. That comes with a much higher tax rate and more regulation. The cost of living in NC is higher - homes there are quite a bit more expensive than in the Upstate. Probably more cultural activities due to the state capital being nearby along with Duke, UNC, and NC State also within the Triangle area.
SC has a lot less provided in the way of government services. That comes with lower taxes and less government red tape. The cost of living in the Upstate is lower. We sold a house in NC and then bought one in the Upstate that was larger, better built, and in a much better school district for about the same amount of money. If you like the mountains and outdoorsy type activities the Upstate is a better fit.
Personally I like less government and lower taxes. I'm also very outdoorsy - I like to hike, camp, whitewater kayak, and spend time in the mountains. The Upstate for me is the clear winner between the two areas. That won't be the case for everyone, though.
I am glad that you love having moved to Greenville, but could you describe what it is that makes Greenville a better choice over the Durham or Chapel Hill areas beyond just an opinion.
Well...
I cant speak for Chapel Hill...though I hear it is beautiful. When I lived in Raleigh...it felt like every other city. Ok Downtown. Ok subdivisions. Everything was fine...nothing more. To me there was nothing out of the ordinary about it. And I'm sure thats exactly what a lot of folks are looking for.
Here in Greenville I feel like something genuinely special is happening. People are genuinely invested in their community. There is a spirit about this place that is really great. Good things are happening. And not just downtown.
To me, Greenville is not too big, it's not too small...it's just right. And there is a goodness about the place I have not felt in other places. Let me give you an example...the first few months we lived here after moving from DC, my wife asked me to come and look at her car. When I asked her why, she said people kept waving at her and she thought there might be something wrong. Turns out it was just people in our neighborhood waving as she passed by. That doesn't happen in most places.
Another example...I was in a little neighborhood diner and I forgot my wallet...the waitress looked at me and said...don't worry about it sweetie. Next time. I had never been there before! Again, this doesn't happen in a lot of places.
Chalk both those examples up to random occurrences maybe...but there are several times a month my wife and I point go specific instances and say "wow...that would have never happened where we're from". They are nearly all positive and she is from about 20 miles south of Raleigh.
One person mentioned traffic in an earlier post...when I read it I laughed out loud. Sure there are some parts to avoid...but "rush hour" doesn't really exist here. And it's not near what it was in Raleigh Durham.
Another poster mentioned schools...we have had no issues. We live in North Main, which admittedly a nicer area, but the schools here are terrific. Our child will go to Greenville High with rich kids, poor kids, black kids, and white kids and we're pretty happy about that.
The cost of living here is great. Our house would be over a million dollars in the neighborhood we used to live in the big city. It cost us 300k here. Cost of living in Raleigh isn't bad...but it's better here.
The location...can't beat it. Beach, mountains, lakes etc. It's all here. I've driven to Charleston for a day at the beach. Driven to Asheville for dinner. Those two places could not be more different...but they are close enough for a day trip. In Raleigh you're a little closer to the beach but that's about it. You've also got Charlotte and Atlanta right down the road...with a bunch of charming small southern towns in between.
The last thing I will say is, I travel all over for work...and whenever I land at GSP I have this feeling of calm that washes over me. I have never had that before. Not 800 miles away where I grew up. Not in the city I moved from. And definitely not in Raleigh Durham.
I work remotely and could live anywhere in the United States but I choose to live here. It's a special place...and a great place to raise a family. C'mon down and see what you think.
We get it - you don't like it in the Upstate. The question that comes to mind is why you remain here if you don't like it.......
I've lived in both areas and with the exception of public transit being better in the Triangle area, I disagree with pretty much all of your points.
You're right, I'm not a big fan of the place, but mainly because I know it has so much potential that is, has been, and will continue to be squandered.
How can you deny the education isn't better there? The public schools are much better and there is more college education, and they proudly show recognition for UNC in every area. You can also look at a map and see that the highway and freeway system is better, and they're working to expand it. And anyone who has driven across the state line into either Georgia or North Carolina can immediately see the difference in quality. I also don't see how you can disagree on the business aspect either. Greenville beats Durham and the triangle in manufacturing, but in most other fields they have us beat. I'll admit when it comes to diversity in people, it might just be me and can be subjective, but Durham and many larger parts of NC feel more diverse than here.
You're right, I'm not a big fan of the place, but mainly because I know it has so much potential that is, has been, and will continue to be squandered.
How can you deny the education isn't better there? The public schools are much better and there is more college education, and they proudly show recognition for UNC in every area. You can also look at a map and see that the highway and freeway system is better, and they're working to expand it. And anyone who has driven across the state line into either Georgia or North Carolina can immediately see the difference in quality. I also don't see how you can disagree on the business aspect either. Greenville beats Durham and the triangle in manufacturing, but in most other fields they have us beat. I'll admit when it comes to diversity in people, it might just be me and can be subjective, but Durham and many larger parts of NC feel more diverse than here.
Now the op has seen your opinion, which is just that. No need to repeat, others will chime in.
You're right, I'm not a big fan of the place, but mainly because I know it has so much potential that is, has been, and will continue to be squandered.
How can you deny the education isn't better there? The public schools are much better and there is more college education, and they proudly show recognition for UNC in every area. You can also look at a map and see that the highway and freeway system is better, and they're working to expand it. And anyone who has driven across the state line into either Georgia or North Carolina can immediately see the difference in quality. I also don't see how you can disagree on the business aspect either. Greenville beats Durham and the triangle in manufacturing, but in most other fields they have us beat. I'll admit when it comes to diversity in people, it might just be me and can be subjective, but Durham and many larger parts of NC feel more diverse than here.
I said that the education IN GENERAL was better in NC. For us specifically, our kids were in Lee County Schools in NC. Our kids are now in Anderson District One schools here. Without a doubt, the schools our kids now attend are much better. Wake County schools are highly rated but the last several years we lived there the Democrats and Republicans fought over control of the school board. When the Democrats had control they bused kids all around to maintain financial equality throughout the county. When the Republicans took over they changed it so kids went to the closest school. Every time it flip-flopped, all the kids got re-assigned. We had friends whose kids went to 4 schools in 5 years while they lived in the same house! I don't think that is good for any child's education!
If you look at a map you will see more roads and highways in the triangle. If you look at population you will also realize there are a LOT more people. My experience is that the amount of road per person is the same or maybe a bit less in the Triangle. There is definitely more congestion and rush hour traffic there. When I drive across the state line on any interstate between SC and NC the road has the same number of lanes and general quality of construction. Roads in rural parts of NC are better but they do that at the expense of roads in the cities. Have you ever driven I-240 through Asheville? That road is one of the worst freeways I've seen anywhere. Raleigh is finally finishing a loop but as a toll road - they estimated more than a decade wait to build it as a freeway.
The Triangle has more business which is supported by a larger population. As I stated in my reply, the Upstate is more manufacturing centric. The Triangle has more variety of business with a focus in computer software and bio-tech. In contrast to the Upstate where most of our major businesses are expanding (Michelin and BMW for 2 examples), most of the established big names in the Triangle are shedding jobs (IBM, Glaxo, Pfizer have all laid off thousands of people). In fact, I left the Triangle because the bio-tech company I worked for there had undergone massive layoffs and planned more layoffs. I left while I still had a job and changed to a different industry here with a rock-solid employer.
The Triangle probably is a bit more diverse but my point was we have people from all over living in the Upstate now. My grandparents were from the Upstate. I remember when downtown Greenville was an empty wasteland and the Camperdown Bridge obscured Reedy Falls. Since then downtown Greenville has been transformed into an example of how to revitalize a small downtown. Greenville has attracted a wide array of new industries and employers.
I see Greenville's glass as more than half full and being filled more every day.
Is it a perfect Nirvana? No but that doesn't exist on this earth, anyway.
CHAPEL HILL!!! hands down, no argument needed. I grew up in NC (both in WNC and the Raleigh area) and had to move here for a job. I count down the days until my contract is up and I can move away from here.
UNC-CH is right there and that alone gives the area a much larger pool of professionals. Expanding to inculde the whole triangle area and you are saturated by top notch colleges, its grads, and businesses that come because of it. Unless you are looking for manufacturing companies the triangle also has many more big companies.
Honestly, I wouldn't even compare the two because Greenville isn't exactly a mecca of anything.... The only close school is clemson and most grads don't stay. The only reason I'd say someone should even consider greenville over the triangle is because of cost of living. Its lower in SC but that also means jobs pay less and the pool is more working class (espcially when comparing to chapel hill which is one of the most expensive places in NC).
I posted the following comparing the general raleigh area to greenville....
Let me start by saying that I never loved Raleigh and when people would ask on the WNC fourm about moving I'd often suggest Greenville as a medium between jobs and mnts. ...... I think starting out I had an unbiased view of Greenville.
Now: Greenville has big city traffic and hardly any pay off. Everything is concentrated in one area with people living all over the outskirts. The only thing IMO that makes greenville better is the downtown and proximity to mountains.
Raleigh is more sprawling and while has bad traffic, has more highways so its not STOP GO STOP GO kind of traffic. It seems there is no direct way to get anywhere in Greenville. The whole triangle area offers much much much for shopping and dinning (Greenville has one crappy mall).
NC Colleges win hands down over SC so thats something to think about even though your son is young. On the same lines, Raleigh has a much higher number of college grads. So for me it was SUPER easy to find a job out of college in Greenville (less competition), never got an interview in Raleigh.
On the side of religion/conservative types: I grew up in WNC and always thought we were in a conservative area. I myself am an episcopal. My parents moved to Wake Forest a few years ago and then I moved to Greenville a few months ago. I had visited Greenville a few times and never thought it was much worse than any other areas in the south.
I was wrong. So far I have encountered several religious fanatics in everyday life in greenville where as I never noticed it in Raleigh or Asheville (unless it was some crazy protest or a really really rare occasion). For example, the barber my SO went to started calling gays extremely derogatory names when project runway came on and a girl at a big box store was severely offended by glee. They felt the need to share such and I knew them for a whole minute.
Ultimately of course, it depends on what you want in a home because tons of people love Greenville.
I agree completely, on every point! I will add that in Durham you are actually closer to nicer beaches in Wilmington, NC than you are in Greenville. There are tons of restaurants and loads of Whole Foods stores in the Raleigh/Durham/ Chapel Hill area. The entire upstate only has one Whole Foods store.
It has a major airport. And is much cheaper to fly in and out of. It is GINORMOUS compared to Greenville. Duke University is in Durham. You've got great hospitals and open minded legislators (enough to not have BANNED Naturopathic Medicine like they did in SC and TN). It is really apples and oranges.
I think Greenville's big advantage is its small size and its cooler temps in the summer or the same and warmer temps during all the other seasons. It has much lower crime than Raleigh/Durham as well.
The mountains are close by and you get FAR more bang for your real estate buck here.
I agree completely, on every point! I will add that in Durham you are actually closer to nicer beaches in Wilmington, NC than you are in Greenville. There are tons of restaurants and loads of Whole Foods stores in the Raleigh/Durham/ Chapel Hill area. The entire upstate only has one Whole Foods store.
It has a major airport. And is much cheaper to fly in and out of. It is GINORMOUS compared to Greenville. Duke University is in Durham. You've got great hospitals and open minded legislators (enough to not have BANNED Naturopathic Medicine like they did in SC and TN). It is really apples and oranges.
I think Greenville's big advantage is its small size and its cooler temps in the summer or the same and warmer temps during all the other seasons. It has much lower crime than Raleigh/Durham as well.
The mountains are close by.
Since when is RDU a major airport?!? Charlotte is much busier, and some don't consider it a major airport either. As for your comments about Whole Foods and naturopathic medicine, I'm not sure how they relate to the OP's questions. Did they mention that they want an area with multiple Whole Foods stores and ND's, or are you interjecting your own desires?
I agree that SC's legislators are frustratingly good 'ol boy at times, but there is a double edge when talking about more government vs. less government. Pros and cons to both. And despite what the state government has and has not done, the Greenville area has grown and prospered. I like that.
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