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Old 09-13-2017, 02:17 PM
 
1,280 posts, read 427,622 times
Reputation: 2005

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Given how bad traffic can be on higher-speed roads surrounded by low-density commercial development, and given that the "hot" low-density commercial area then falls into disrepair when the next low-density commercial area is built, why does Greenville keep allowing that type of development?

1970s: Pleasantburg Drive: "Hot", with bad traffic
1980s: Laurens Road and Haywood Road: "Hot", with bad traffic
1990s-present: Woodruff Road: "Hot", with bad traffic (and with Pleasantburg Drive, Laurens Road and Haywood Road in disrepair)

It doesn't take an authoritative voice from a burning bush to figure out what will happen next:

2020s or later: X Road: "Hot", with bad traffic (with Woodruff Road, Pleasantburg Drive, Laurens Road and Haywood Road in disrepair)

Why doesn't Greenville:

* Require that the next "hot" commercial area be built on a grid street network so that people can park somewhere and walk around from business to business, like downtown?

* Require higher-quality commercial structures in the next "hot" commercial area, instead of disposable commercial bric-a-brac?

I'm genuinely confused as to why Greenville keeps allowing the same kind of commercial areas to be built, resulting in heavy traffic and then a slide into disrepair.
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Old 09-13-2017, 03:50 PM
 
924 posts, read 1,285,186 times
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True.
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Upstate SC
311 posts, read 191,888 times
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It's the same reason giant companies continue stupid practices. Profits are being made, why change?

It's the same reason restaurants that have terrible service and food but have high traffic don't address their problems, why should they?

It's the same reason police don't care about traffic, traffic tickets aren't sexy and don't show up in "crime statistics" so why bother? "Crime" is down!

Squeaky wheel and all that.
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'Waterfall City'
7,533 posts, read 3,939,874 times
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Haywood Mall is one of the largest malls in the state, right on Haywood Road. Haywood Road has more stuff on it now than it ever did in the 1980s.

I don't understand your point about not being able to park and walk to different stores. You can do that at the mall, Greenridge, Magnolia Park, etc.

Laurens Road was never the equivalent of what Woodruff Road is today. I wouldn't say Laurens and Pleasantburg are in disrepair and Laurens is set for more development. North Pleasantburg didn't have the Cherrydale shopping and movie theater 20 years ago.

South Pleasantburg didn't have a Publix and Freshmarket back in the day.

I don't understand how Greenridge, Haywood Mall, and Magnolia Park can be considered low quality commercial shopping centers.

Last edited by ClemVegas; 09-13-2017 at 04:34 PM..
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Old 09-13-2017, 07:50 PM
 
1,280 posts, read 427,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simpsonvilllian View Post
Haywood Mall is one of the largest malls in the state, right on Haywood Road. Haywood Road has more stuff on it now than it ever did in the 1980s.

I don't understand your point about not being able to park and walk to different stores. You can do that at the mall, Greenridge, Magnolia Park, etc.

Laurens Road was never the equivalent of what Woodruff Road is today. I wouldn't say Laurens and Pleasantburg are in disrepair and Laurens is set for more development. North Pleasantburg didn't have the Cherrydale shopping and movie theater 20 years ago.

South Pleasantburg didn't have a Publix and Freshmarket back in the day.



I don't understand how Greenridge, Haywood Mall, and Magnolia Park can be considered low quality commercial shopping centers.
It is not feasible to walk from one development to the next. If you want to go to Target, Costco and Lowe's on Woodruff, driving between them is required. If there were a grid road system with sidewalks, you could walk between them if you wanted and traffic would be less.

South Pleasantburg and Laurens roads are borderline derelict. Yes, South Pleasantburg has a Fresh Market and a Publix, but a 500,000 sf mall (including the Winn-Dixie on Antrim Drive, which was derelict) closed. It now has a Goodwill store in place of a Bi-Lo, and check cashing stores. South Pleasantburg has fallen from where it was in the early '90s. Haywood Road has held up better but it has seen stores moving out and not much new construction south of the mall in quite some time. Pleasantburg will need to be completely redeveloped to be an A-grade commercial corridor again.

Greenridge in particular, Magnolia Park and Haywood are fine, but there will be no use for them if and when stores move out, and they are surrounded by bric-a-brac: see the tiny strip shopping centers that line Woodruff Road, which are the 2000s equivalents of the comparable disposable buildings built along Laurens and Pleasantburg from the 1960s through the 1980s.

By comparison, the better-quality buildings in downtown, though vacant in the 1980s, were repurposed and had more lasting value.
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Old 09-14-2017, 07:09 AM
 
2,376 posts, read 2,120,144 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppiesandKittens View Post
Given how bad traffic can be on higher-speed roads surrounded by low-density commercial development, and given that the "hot" low-density commercial area then falls into disrepair when the next low-density commercial area is built, why does Greenville keep allowing that type of development?

1970s: Pleasantburg Drive: "Hot", with bad traffic
1980s: Laurens Road and Haywood Road: "Hot", with bad traffic
1990s-present: Woodruff Road: "Hot", with bad traffic (and with Pleasantburg Drive, Laurens Road and Haywood Road in disrepair)

It doesn't take an authoritative voice from a burning bush to figure out what will happen next:

2020s or later: X Road: "Hot", with bad traffic (with Woodruff Road, Pleasantburg Drive, Laurens Road and Haywood Road in disrepair)

Why doesn't Greenville:

* Require that the next "hot" commercial area be built on a grid street network so that people can park somewhere and walk around from business to business, like downtown?

* Require higher-quality commercial structures in the next "hot" commercial area, instead of disposable commercial bric-a-brac?

I'm genuinely confused as to why Greenville keeps allowing the same kind of commercial areas to be built, resulting in heavy traffic and then a slide into disrepair.
Are you suggesting we implement evil Yankee socialist planning policies? You must be one of those evil socialist Yankees!

That about sums up the typical response to any discussion that this area needs to implement anything resembling coherent, long term planning that would help prevent the next version of Woodruff Road 20 years from now.
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Old 09-14-2017, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Upstate
5,778 posts, read 6,549,042 times
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Along the same subject (and most likely similar answer) is why planning allows so much growth with sub-divisions with no thought or plan to upgrade the main arteries first.

There should be some requirement that a subdivision builder has to invest some amount of money into upgrading roads. I realize the buyer would eventually be paying for this.

But on W. Georgia Rd in Simpsonville for instance, the subdivisions have built their entrances so close to W. Georgia, that there is very little room for expansion/widening. And even if they had the room, adding new lanes after the fact (as well as moving sewer and power) will make a mess of traffic for years.

I know the answer to this question, just baffles me I suppose.
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Old 09-14-2017, 11:11 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
19,961 posts, read 18,803,688 times
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If developers want to spend money building close to roads that will be widened long-term, they deserve to spend more to fund the necessary transportation improvement projects necessary with their developments. The alternative is homeowners and businesses filing class action lawsuits against developers for losing acreage because their structures were built close to the major artery.

It also makes sense to improve roads now at today's prices before prices escalate in the future.
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Old 09-14-2017, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'Waterfall City'
7,533 posts, read 3,939,874 times
Reputation: 2852
Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppiesandKittens View Post
It is not feasible to walk from one development to the next. If you want to go to Target, Costco and Lowe's on Woodruff, driving between them is required. If there were a grid road system with sidewalks, you could walk between them if you wanted and traffic would be less.

South Pleasantburg and Laurens roads are borderline derelict. Yes, South Pleasantburg has a Fresh Market and a Publix, but a 500,000 sf mall (including the Winn-Dixie on Antrim Drive, which was derelict) closed. It now has a Goodwill store in place of a Bi-Lo, and check cashing stores. South Pleasantburg has fallen from where it was in the early '90s. Haywood Road has held up better but it has seen stores moving out and not much new construction south of the mall in quite some time. Pleasantburg will need to be completely redeveloped to be an A-grade commercial corridor again.

Greenridge in particular, Magnolia Park and Haywood are fine, but there will be no use for them if and when stores move out, and they are surrounded by bric-a-brac: see the tiny strip shopping centers that line Woodruff Road, which are the 2000s equivalents of the comparable disposable buildings built along Laurens and Pleasantburg from the 1960s through the 1980s.

By comparison, the better-quality buildings in downtown, though vacant in the 1980s, were repurposed and had more lasting value.
It seems unrealistic to expect to walk between every store / restaurant within a metro to other stores. Costco and the Lowes are in two different shopping centers located on opposite sides of I-85 and they were developed at different times. You can walk to numerous other stores within the same shopping centers. Is there a metro where people can easily walk between every store that they want to go to? I don't think most people want to walk between stores, especially when shopping for groceries and common household goods. The appeal of these shopping centers to me is the ability to park near the store that I want to go to.

Haywood Road has seen stores and restaurants move in as well. You say it has held up better but it has more now than it did before. It has the largest or 2nd largest mall in the state, and you can park and walk to numerous stores in the mall and around the mall.

The reason stores moved over to Woodruff is the growth Simpsonville and Greer that shifted the center of the metro over that way. It had nothing to do with traffic or how the shopping centers were set up.

I don't see any reason Pleasantburg needs to be a grade A commercial corridor. If it happens, it happens, but there is plenty of shopping and restaurants in the metro, and check cashing stores,etc need to locate somewhere. I don't have a problem with a Goodwill store taking over a building where a grocery store used to be.

I think Laurens and Pleasantburg is going to see some new commercial development if the downtown area continues to grow.

Last edited by ClemVegas; 09-14-2017 at 01:05 PM..
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Old 09-14-2017, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'Waterfall City'
7,533 posts, read 3,939,874 times
Reputation: 2852
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhitewaterVol View Post
Are you suggesting we implement evil Yankee socialist planning policies? You must be one of those evil socialist Yankees!

That about sums up the typical response to any discussion that this area needs to implement anything resembling coherent, long term planning that would help prevent the next version of Woodruff Road 20 years from now.
Can you quote anybody in Greenville making that kind of comment? I have never heard anybody say that.

There are roads as busy or busier than Woodruff Road up north and elsewhere. Your premise appears to be there is no traffic congestion up north.

I would say the shopping centers in Greenville are similar to the ones that I have seen up north and elsewhere.
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