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Gov. McMaster, when talking about the virus numbers going up, “There is a lot of stupid going on out there.”
A lot of stupid going on - like opening flea markets and bowling alleys, and eliminating all restrictions on the number of people allowed inside retail establishments while the numbers continue to increase?
A lot of stupid going on - like opening flea markets and bowling alleys, and eliminating all restrictions on the number of people allowed inside retail establishments while the numbers continue to increase?
"Just because I said you could didn't mean that you needed to!" The fact that governors, legislators, and city council members were willing to reopen things everywhere with loose restrictions, but still only do their meetings through Zoom should've made it obvious to everybody that they only cared about political fallback, not actual health.
The Wisconsin gop forced the governor to reopen the state, yet they refused to meet in person themselves. Lower wage workers have to go back to work or risk being fired and getting no unemployement, but the white collar workers can stay at home with their Zoom and Netflix. Makes sense.
"Just because I said you could didn't mean that you needed to!" The fact that governors, legislators, and city council members were willing to reopen things everywhere with loose restrictions, but still only do their meetings through Zoom should've made it obvious to everybody that they only cared about political fallback, not actual health.
The Wisconsin gop forced the governor to reopen the state, yet they refused to meet in person themselves. Lower wage workers have to go back to work or risk being fired and getting no unemployement, but the white collar workers can stay at home with their Zoom and Netflix. Makes sense.
Well.. It's hard to flip a burger through Zoom.
Or build a transmission, or a car.. Not that the folks at ZF and BMW are necessarily 'low wage'
There's just.. Jobs that can't be done remotely and many of them are lower paying jobs.
A goodly number of restaurants that i've seen have been pretty responsible. Operating at half capacity with spacing.. If they get a confirmed case (As several in Greenwood have) they're closing. Though, I wonder how many we are NOT hearing about. Village Grill in Abbeville had an employee test positive.. They've closed.
Now.. What about a Lowe's or Home Depot or WalMart? I have to believe of those three in Simpsonville.. There has to be at least one confirmed case.
Or build a transmission, or a car.. Not that the folks at ZF and BMW are necessarily 'low wage'
There's just.. Jobs that can't be done remotely and many of them are lower paying jobs.
A goodly number of restaurants that i've seen have been pretty responsible. Operating at half capacity with spacing.. If they get a confirmed case (As several in Greenwood have) they're closing. Though, I wonder how many we are NOT hearing about. Village Grill in Abbeville had an employee test positive.. They've closed.
Now.. What about a Lowe's or Home Depot or WalMart? I have to believe of those three in Simpsonville.. There has to be at least one confirmed case.
My point was: we were told it was safe by people who still refuse to go out themselves. That is the point. It's like a Disneyworld exec knows a rollercoaster isn't safe, yet says that it must operate - even though he's not going to get on that coaster himself.
The scientists are the only ones who truly cared about the health of the country, yet they were the ones who are being vilified for "trying to ruin the country" and "changing their tune." Politicians reopened to save their careers in this election year and CEOs, it should be obvious.
If you're not willing to go get that burger, then you shouldn't have forced someone to go back and make it until it was safe.
I'm glad things have reopened in general, but we did it wrong, did it hastily, and didn't communication effectively that this doesn't mean the virus is over.
My point was: we were told it was safe by people who still refuse to go out themselves. That is the point. It's like a Disneyworld exec knows a rollercoaster isn't safe, yet says that it must operate - even though he's not going to get on that coaster himself.
The scientists are the only ones who truly cared about the health of the country, yet they were the ones who are being vilified for "trying to ruin the country" and "changing their tune." Politicians reopened to save their careers in this election year and CEOs, it should be obvious.
If you're not willing to go get that burger, then you shouldn't have forced someone to go back and make it until it was safe.
I'm glad things have reopened in general, but we did it wrong, did it hastily, and didn't communication effectively that this doesn't mean the virus is over.
I still remember the message as to the reasoning behind the shutdown. It was done to 'flatten the curve'. Never was it sold as a way to end the virus. I never saw it presented that way and I didn't see any question that there would be cases continuing post-reopening. Now.. Yes, I do think alot of people didn't listen/understand.. And they just thought wrong.
I still think the entire shutdown, at least here, was BS (A little harsh, but I used it).. I mean, I don't particularly see any curve to flatten there. Maybe it's still to come.. But something else certainly seems to be happening. Yes, we've had an uptick in ICU beds used.. But if you look at the explosion of positive cases.. There's been no corresponding explosion in the death count. This actually piques my interest more than anything. Again, possibly that it's around the corner or something..But this fascinates me. are we seeing evolution in progress? Has the virus weakened? Better knowledge of management by doctors? What's the explanation for that?
No company has been forced to reopen by the government. There may be a large number that were forced to reopen due to economic reasons. Very, very few were forced to close in the first place.
I do get where you're coming from and yes, I'm oversimplifying some of this. But.. There are some considerations that need to be taken into account. The 'lockdowns' had gone on for so long.. The first week or two.. No huge deal. Past that.. You started getting antsy people. Business owners. Who were defying the orders.. Which would have inevitably led to court cases.. That i'm not certain they wouldn't have won. "Public Safety" has some long arms, so, I don't know how it would have turned out.. But I'm pretty certain the government is happy they likely won't have to find out.
Those court cases.. They are matters of law at that point. So, while this isn't exactly an entirely logical comparison at first blush.. There's a case that the ATF has dropped. They got a guy for illegally manufacturing AR-15's.. He fought them. They felt he was about to win, so they dropped the case so that there was no legal decision on it.. It's kinda fascinating..
But.. How the hell do we get to that from a Covid-19 discussion? Well, those business owners who would sue.. The lockdown ended before they did, but not much before.. And so.. If something like this were to ever happen again (Or second wave, etc) there's no court case that says the government CAN'T do this again.
Anyway, that's my half-baked theory on the reason opening back up was/is pretty much required.
But something else certainly seems to be happening. Yes, we've had an uptick in ICU beds used.. But if you look at the explosion of positive cases.. There's been no corresponding explosion in the death count. This actually piques my interest more than anything.
There's about an average 15 day delay between the first symptom and possible hospitalization, with another likely 1-2 weeks before passing away.
Unless the treatments have improved for a better outcome, the results of more cases may show up later.
There's about an average 15 day delay between the first symptom and possible hospitalization, with another likely 1-2 weeks before passing away.
Unless the treatments have improved for a better outcome, the results of more cases may show up later.
We've been hanging at the 200 minimum range since about the 21st of May. Yes, the true explosion of 500+ cases is relatively new, so, that's still got another week or so before it might start showing up.
We had an uptick a while back with no (seemingly) corresponding death uptick. We shall see if the explosion of cases leads to an explosion of deaths.
I still remember the message as to the reasoning behind the shutdown. It was done to 'flatten the curve'. Never was it sold as a way to end the virus. I never saw it presented that way and I didn't see any question that there would be cases continuing post-reopening. Now.. Yes, I do think alot of people didn't listen/understand.. And they just thought wrong.
Yes, it was always to flatten the curve, and if we had did it right, not only would the curve have flattened, but we would've gotten the virus under control, which is even more important. We wouldn't have had to close everything if we had just tested, like other countries did, but the government held it back. South Korea tested in 3 days what SC, NC, GA, and FL combined tested in 3 weeks. That was the problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Labonte18
I still think the entire shutdown, at least here, was BS (A little harsh, but I used it).. I mean, I don't particularly see any curve to flatten there. Maybe it's still to come.. But something else certainly seems to be happening. Yes, we've had an uptick in ICU beds used.. But if you look at the explosion of positive cases.. There's been no corresponding explosion in the death count. This actually piques my interest more than anything. Again, possibly that it's around the corner or something..But this fascinates me. are we seeing evolution in progress? Has the virus weakened? Better knowledge of management by doctors? What's the explanation for that?
It wasn't BS, everything about the coronavirus has been handled wrong. Once the virus was made political, we were doomed with this cluster F. Singapore, New Zealand, Australia, even Germany didn't have this problem. Even China didn't. The US was never under "lockdown", you were still free to move, but China did literally lock down Wuhan, everyone in Wuhan dealt with it, and it worked.
Testing has gotten better, which does help partly explain the rise in cases, but we still have a ways to go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Labonte18
No company has been forced to reopen by the government. There may be a large number that were forced to reopen due to economic reasons. Very, very few were forced to close in the first place.
You're right, but companies did force people back to work or else they'd be fired. Many stories of execs, managers, and employees ignoring safety measures and trying to keep things under wraps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Labonte18
I do get where you're coming from and yes, I'm oversimplifying some of this. But.. There are some considerations that need to be taken into account. The 'lockdowns' had gone on for so long.. The first week or two.. No huge deal. Past that.. You started getting antsy people. Business owners. Who were defying the orders.. Which would have inevitably led to court cases.. That i'm not certain they wouldn't have won. "Public Safety" has some long arms, so, I don't know how it would have turned out.. But I'm pretty certain the government is happy they likely won't have to find out.
I already told you what could've been done to help fix this - freeze and pause payments if people weren't allowed to have income, but youve stated a few times that you don't like that idea.
And while the shutdowns didn't help, the economy was going to go down regardless, and people ignore that. Airports were running at as low as 3% capacity. Even if international restrictions weren't in place, it was going to be bad. But again: had we just did exactly what South Korea and Singapore did, we wouldn't have had to go through any of this.
I already told you what could've been done to help fix this - freeze and pause payments if people weren't allowed to have income, but youve stated a few times that you don't like that idea.
And while the shutdowns didn't help, the economy was going to go down regardless, and people ignore that. Airports were running at as low as 3% capacity. Even if international restrictions weren't in place, it was going to be bad. But again: had we just did exactly what South Korea and Singapore did, we wouldn't have had to go through any of this.
Yeah, the economy was going to crash regardless. Either through a lockdown to try to control the virus or through a complete crash from allowing the virus to spread without any attempt to control it. The only way to have avoided that would have been to get in front of it early with effective testing and contact tracing. South Korea, Japan, Singapore, New Zealand, and Taiwan all did a great job of containing the virus early and eliminating outbreaks. South Korea did it without the need to close large parts of their economy. If we had continued our lockdown for another 3-4 weeks we might be mostly on the other side of it now. Instead, we never shut things down quite enough and we opened back up too early before the virus was contained.
I already told you what could've been done to help fix this - freeze and pause payments if people weren't allowed to have income, but youve stated a few times that you don't like that idea.
Explain how that would work. ok.. So, I can see mortgages being frozen.. executive order (Though that'd be something of a reach) that says no mortgages are due for.. 3 months or whatever. Taxes suspended for those three months? Because Joe Q Landlord still has to pay his taxes on the location that he's not getting any income from. He still has to send repairmen out for maintenance on it, with no money coming in. How does that work?
So, what about the power bills? Internet? Linemen forced to stay home? Can't go out to repair downed lines?
No money coming in to the power companies. So, even if they have employees that are forced to work.. Are they forced to work without pay?
Are you closing grocery stores? Pharmacies? Office supply stores? Home Depot and Lowes? Doctors offices?
Exactly what gets shut down.. What payments are frozen?
Most of the ideas of 'freezes' on rent and the like are horrid ideas.. Because unless the rent is forgiven, all it means is that someone has a massive bill they can't afford at the end of the free period and the landlord is still left holding the bag for providing a place to live to someone for three months free of charge.
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