Thinking about Gunsmithing as a side

[Fire_Down_Below]

Become an "armorer"...less hassle and you don't need an FFL for it.

Another fool proof way to avoid the red tape with "this" is not letting the customer or person walk off.

You work on their weapon while they are right there and present...like say at a gun show.

You never took possession of it, he's right there.

You don't want to get into 1911 work, rifle bedding, revolver action/trigger jobs etc...

It's too much hassle and requires a great deal of mechanical aptitude and tools.

Many people call themselves a "gun smith". They simply aren't.

UNLESS you have a full on machine shop and have skills that compare to a tool & die maker....(machinist) you aren't a "gun smith".

Forget all of that and get "armorer" certified for Glock, Sig Sauer, HK, (AR15/ALL MFG), S&W M&P, SA XD/XDm etc...

You can make more money putting on a set of night sights ^^^ then screwing with a 1911 for a week anyway.

That level of "skill" is hard to find.

Most people don't trust "mom and pop" smiths to do that kind of work.

They will send it to NOVAK, Wilson Combat etc... and the likes.

Good luck!

[Mack Knife]

Originally Posted by chucksnee

Thanks for the info Mack.

The school I plan to go to is here, and it is all on-line:

Master Gunsmith Training & Gun Repair | American Gunsmithing Institute

I'm not sure how far I will go in this, but in the end it will be free (VA) and when/if I get my FFL, it will be more towards the transfer of guns. Where I live there are very few gunsmiths, they are here, but..they have some attitudes, and even less who will transfer without a steep price. I figure I can do it for $20 or less...most here are $35 and up.

If I started, I would start with cleaning guns and stuff like that. Not much, just to see...then obviously I would work my guns to show off what I can do...and of course do transfers.

I don't think this will get very large, as I do have a full time job and still young (42). And in the end I love guns and this will be free education.

When I do this, I was also thinking about getting a LLC to go along with the company name....

I don't plan on this happening tomorrow, but if/when it will be in the near future to make it happen.

Thanks again.

JUMP. So many wait until its far too late to enjoy a passion. If you're going on on-line route though, consider getting a small mill and lathe, some other good metal working tools and begin by refurbishing junk guns. You'll learn a lot that way and seeing the differences in design and materials learn quite a bit more than you think.

A good Gunsmith makes the trade by reputation, not the certificate on the wall. Those on-line courses probably won't get you too far. You'll learn some things but most of what you need to know you're going to learn by doing and getting some foundation knowledge from other sources.

Don't worry about the LLC, instead, before you put a finger on someone else's gun for a fee, make sure you have a good personal liability insurance policy. High paid lawyers can often find a way around the LLC protections and then you'll need the insurance anyway.

There is a lot of demand for people who can refinish firearms. I don't mean change a stock but take something that is plain jane or neglected and bring it back to like or embellish it for the customer. There is a higher premium paid for that than say doing a trigger job or polishing a feed ramp. Much less liability too.

You work on a safety, polish a feed ramp, smooth out a chamber or lighten a trigger and something happens, you are on the hook and it won't matter that the customer wanted you to do it. There is a reason some brake shops won't turn rotors past minimum. While the common answer that it is illegal could or could not be valid, be sure that if the brakes fail it won't matter that the customer said turn them. The shop is supposed to know better. It won't take someone going after you for a million dollars to ruin your life, just someone after 10-15k.

All that being said, do consider just getting a few bench top machines and start learning the basic of machine work. Almost all community colleges have some course to deal with that. One way is to get some automotive machine shop skills. Lot of places for that and most all of those skills are directly transferable to doing what you want to do.

It will cost you about 4 grand to get some decent benchtop machine tools. With them you'll be able to finish AR-15 uppers, bore chambers, mill sights and lots of other things. The other tools will help you learn metal surface treating and so on. The good thing is if things don't work out, you can't lose money on those kinds of tools and benchtop machines. Most often (I've done it) you can sell them for what you paid for them.

Good luck.

[bellhead]

My uncle became a part time gun smith after he retired from Ford... Said it was a real good job.

[chucksnee]

Well, looks like this may have fallen through....

I was hoping I could use the VA (i'm 70%) but that does not look like I qualify for that.


And they won't accept Post 9/11 GI bill either....gonna have a lot of money left over in that, I'm in my last class for my BS...

I cannot afford to pay that much money for something I may or may not take up fully....

[rifleman]

As Mack notes, and as with my prior advise, consider the refinishing option as the only thing you do at first. With, say, Dura-coat or Cerami-Kote, you can take in firearms, (you will still need an FFL if you keep a customer's firearm past 24h unless it truly is only a friends' weapon). You can of course also get started by doing some of your own firearms, or any of your friend's guns, and charge them perhaps, technically, through the very legal barter system (though there are limits to exactly how many chickens you can eat... ).

As per the ATF, you will also have to have (and indeed you'll want...) a v. secure place to hold all possible customer firearms. And later, when you inevitably retire a rich ex-gunsmith**, you'll have a v. secure place for all your personal firearms, cameras, watch collection () and so on.

A safe is always the best choice; but you will only need a size of about 60 - 72" tall, 28" deep (PS: they pretty much are all that 28" depth to clear door openings...) and perhaps 30 - 36" wide. You want enough interior volume and spacing to easily hold about 4-6 customer's guns plus your own, say, 3 - 5 long gun (as in: not EVER jammed in together. A customer sees that when he picks up his now slightly scratched rifle.. (Ooopppsss... ), and he's not going to recommend your services. Or you might need a larger interior volume if your wife's diamond jewelry collection is extensive and voluminous...).

I have used Sportsman Steel Safes out of SoCal (their prices are usually quite good, though the now-retired owner's son who now owns it is or was a bit of a paranoid loon when I visited them and bought two safes; his prices are still good and construction is V. strong! Going with an Asian-built Browning (those brand name safes all are built over there now...) is both costly and of non-US build. Even Sportsman Steel has had to do that for some of their cheaper options. Your choice.

Actually, I think h may have had some other company take over. Or maybe he's gone? At least now, he's less easily ramped up. Kevin Hand as I recall. At any rate, over sevaral decades of safe building, he has acquired a v. good rep for honest pricing and a strong build.

As for how often you will realistically open it (And noting that I open mine at least 3-5 times/day when I'm in my shop), I'd specify the LG electronic keypad. Yes, there also are good arguments for an older type mechanical dial, since an EMF pulse can not disable a purely mechanical latch system. And you do get quite adept at mechanical speed dialing, so... again, it's your choice!

PS: I had a SS Safe that I spec'd both types of latching on the door, strictly for the visible security marketing effect.

You can also order other higher-tech electronic lock pads that you can give alternate access numbers to, but which it will dutifully record for later scrutiny.

Like: how many times did a possible employee or you or your wife, to count her gold and diamond collection, go in? Such numbers are also easily removed, having only the Master number remain intact.).

Gun Safes for Sale | Vault Doors | Storm Shelters - Sportsman Steel Safes

Btw, I think I probably mentioned this company when we spoke on the phone, Chucksnee.

And... always remember this now-established fact:
__________________________________________________ ______________________

** "How do you become a millionaire as a gunsmith? Answer: You start with $2 million!"

The materials and equipment requirements for Dura-Coat™ type spraying are minimal, and you'll also then have a v. useful pressurized air supply for other possible automotive or woodworking or tools. You also get to see and market some other option(s) you are capable of, like say, a minor trigger adjustment on a Rem 700 or Win 70 or Savage or Sako, etc. (All v. easy, but again, you have to understand those legal limits...).

Personally, I'd avoid buying v. expensive metal-working stuff for the reasons I mentioned on the phone. By the time you can produce the über-quality of workmanship that paying customers demand of a top-end gunsmith (i.e.: do not do shoddy work, ever...). void those combo lathe, mill-drill and CNC directed milling machines. Their limited Asian-defined precision is questionable at best. A good gunsmithing lathe, for instance. To be able to really and properly mount a bbl with extreme accuracy, the equipment will easily cost you, what with all the cutting elements and other support equipment, (and here, you'll an to get your Platinum AMEX card out and anticipate about $20k..._

Be v. careful with any so-called "good used" equipment, unless the seller truly is retiring and not just upgrading at your expense! The pitfalls, I tellz yah!

As time progresses, you'll develop a list of things you can confidentially market as "professional grade" 'smithing (Q: is that like, you know, GM? Hee hee..)

And again, first off, do up at least one or more of your own semi-custom rifle(s) or handguns to learn whatever experience teaches. And it will (hopefully !!!) create demo pieces to show off to potential customers! You may end up repeating some initial upgrading &/or error corrections, but persist and you will learn a lot!

Again, DM for specifics! Have an upbeat day guys!

And good shooting & hunting this fall!

[Nite Ryder]

I've been involved in guns all my adult life, and my best friend is a gun smith. I've spent many hours by his side watching and learning. First and foremost, if you are going to do work for other people you need to know how to use a lathe and have a good understanding of mathematics. You will need to buy a lathe and probably a milling machine, these are expensive tools that any gunsmith will need to do his work. For the last ten years I've tinkered with single action Ruger revolvers, Winchester '73 and '66 rifles, '97 Shotguns, and 1894 Marlin Rifles. I've worked on my own and I've worked on the guns of other people, but I'm no gunsmith. I have no business even thinking about flipping the on-off switch on a lathe. Most of the information you are going to need to be a gunsmith can't be learned for reading a book, you will need some hands on experience. The toughest part of being a gunsmith is dealing with ATF, and doing and maintaining all the paperwork they require. An agent told me to apply for an FFL only if I wanted to go into business to make money. He said if you are doing it for hobby purposes, we don't want you to have an FFL. If you are going to be a gunsmith and handle the firearms of other people, you are required by law to obtain an FFL. I thought long and hard about my conversation with the ATF agent I talked to and decided I didn't want to give them any reason to come to my home.

[chucksnee]

Hey, I want to thank EVERYONE for their advice!

All comments have been though about and digested in my mind.

For those that have commented and called me to provide advise, thank you! Your advise is well taken and will be put use..

[NJ Brazen_3133]

Does the gunsmithing profession also include the people who make the bullets or ordnance? If so, I think that is where the money is. People always need more bullets, unless they reload it themselves.

[rifleman]

Commercial production of ammo or reloads requires a Federal Class 7 FFL, such as I have. This as per my local BATFE administrative visitor. You can always call them up as well for clarification.