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Thanks for that, I had not seen that one before. That short barreled judge had decent enough groupings but was hitting pretty high for such short range.
One of the reasons I came to this board with my question if anybody owned/used a 13" Home Defender model is wondering about a rifled barrel that is designed to take any shotgun load that will fit, yet still function for .45 LC rounds. How accurately can one dial in a short 13" shotgun with a rifled barrel? Slugs I get, but what of multi pellet self defense shells?
My BIL would only load self defense .410 shotgun shells in it, just like he did with the little shockwave he gifted me with.
I helped him zero a quality green laser I mounted on an aftermarket pic rail on his shockwave for him, and found that set up to work quite well at 5,7 and 10 yards, shooting from low. But the little shockwave is a smooth bore.
I hope to find one of these 13" judge home defender models if I can, but would still like experienced feedback from one of the seasoned shooters that post here if possible regarding self defense .410 accuracy. I would plan to install the green laser on it as the primary sight method.
No experience here. The cylinder gap would shy me away from two handed holds on that puppy. This coming from a younger version of myself having a finger to far forward on a Ruger Super Redhawk, 7.5" barrel with a full load .44 mag. YEOOOCCHHHHH!!
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Originally Posted by McBain II
I guess my question is why is your BIL insisting on such novel and niche guns for home defense? It is making the issue needlessly complicated.
My advice: Help him find any one of the reasonably priced, high quality, striker fired 9mm handguns that are flooding the market. Have him handle several until he finds one that is an ergonomic fit for him, then have him load it up with a quality 124 grain jacketed hollow point round like Federal HST or Speer Gold Dot. If desired, you can throw a slide mounted optic or laser sight on it for added ease of use.
Boom. Done. He'd be out ~$500 for the gun, plus the cost of ammo and the optic/laser if desired. Glock, Smith & Wesson, SIG, FN, H&K and many others are options.
My BIL is very new to firearms, has a bit of a learning curve, and has low body strength in his hands and arms. He has issues loading and cycling the pump action on the Mossberg shockwave in .410 that his wife bought him after the riots in 2020.
That revolver style Taurus looks simple/easy to operate, with a foregrip/stock for 2nd hand support. My BIL is very wealthy and could buy a large selection to try out, but he is also kind of stubborn, and hates the fact he is aging and losing physical capabilities.
We did look at semi autos and revolvers at some length initially, but he insists on a small shotgun style due to the choice of self defense rounds in shotgun shells, and his interest in this one is due to (what seems) ease of use. His wife has several 9mm semi autos in the house, he doesnt like any of them. We also talked about auto loader shotguns, but he isnt sure he could handle a misfire/jam when it really counted.
This isnt for me so much, it is for him. I am just keen to assist him.
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Originally Posted by Threerun
No experience here. The cylinder gap would shy me away from two handed holds on that puppy. This coming from a younger version of myself having a finger to far forward on a Ruger Super Redhawk, 7.5" barrel with a full load .44 mag. YEOOOCCHHHHH!!
I was bit the same way by my GP100 stoked with .357's in 1983 or so when I first got it, it was my very first revolver. I learned from it.
Only 1 youtube vid I found on this Taurus mentioned any powder/heat getting past the heat shields with a 2 handed hold onto the bare offhand wrist, but he said it was simply "noticeable", and didnt give him pause to shoot it multiple times.
I was bit the same way by my GP100 stoked with .357's in 1983 or so when I first got it, it was my very first revolver. I learned from it.
Only 1 youtube vid I found on this Taurus mentioned any powder/heat getting past the heat shields with a 2 handed hold onto the bare offhand wrist, but he said it was simply "noticeable", and didnt give him pause to shoot it multiple times.
I think the muscle memory from that singular event would prevent me from moving my fingers that far forward, lol.
I will say that my auto loader shotguns rarely, and I mean rarely fail to cycle. It has to be dirty, sub zero and then it might get a fail to cycle. You gotta shoot some rounds in to loosen up, but it's a dream. I can pull the action back with my pinky now. Granted it's a goose gun, so not so great for defense. What about a double barrel or triple barrel 'coach' shotgun? If cashola is no object, Charles Daly has some funky break open triples.
My BIL is very new to firearms, has a bit of a learning curve, and has low body strength in his hands and arms. He has issues loading and cycling the pump action on the Mossberg shockwave in .410 that his wife bought him after the riots in 2020.
That revolver style Taurus looks simple/easy to operate, with a foregrip/stock for 2nd hand support. My BIL is very wealthy and could buy a large selection to try out, but he is also kind of stubborn, and hates the fact he is aging and losing physical capabilities.
We did look at semi autos and revolvers at some length initially, but he insists on a small shotgun style due to the choice of self defense rounds in shotgun shells, and his interest in this one is due to (what seems) ease of use. His wife has several 9mm semi autos in the house, he doesnt like any of them. We also talked about auto loader shotguns, but he isnt sure he could handle a misfire/jam when it really counted.
This isnt for me so much, it is for him. I am just keen to assist him.
Learning curve and poor strength all seem to me to be very strong arguments in favor of a semi-auto pistol. Simply keep the gun loaded with a round in the chamber. If confronted with an intruder, hold the sight center mass and fire until the threat is neutralized. Even contemplating a worst case scenario with multiple threats, it takes very little strength to hit a mag release, slap in a new mag and drop the slide release.
Revolvers are going to have significantly heavier triggers. How likely is he to be able to handle that trigger under stress? Could he do so accurately?
Also, if he's worried about a jam or misfire, that's another argument in favor of a quality semi-auto with quality ammo. He'd be much less likely to have malfunction with that than with these novelty guns.
I know you're trying to help him but it seems like he has given you a needlessly difficult task and he would probably benefit from a very frank discussion about his wants vs his needs.
I bought a Taurus Judge because my son was fascinated with it against my better "judgement". Worst purchase I ever made - it is completely useless in basically all scenarios and I would probably take a $200 hit on it to resell which is why I haven't. I remember the commercial where a man was approaching a woman in a garage and she took it out of her purse, yeah right. A S&W Airweight in 38 +p would be a much better option. The Judge is very large and has extreme recoil for a handgun - there is a reason the 410's are in shotgun form - it is too powerful for a handgun IMO. I agree with the revolver position though, maybe a GP100 in 357 would be tops but I would shoot it first. A 38 can do about the same damage, not break your wrists and allow you to get follow-up shots on target. Just my 2 cents.
I came across the Rossi Circuit Judge also , it too has an 18" barrell like the Mossberg Shockwave he had, but finding one for him to try out is difficult. Even though he is wealthy, he is reluctant to buy something he may not end up liking.
He is keen on a low recoil shotgun though, but these are all really niche type guns.
He is up north at his summer home near me now, but the little home defense shotgun would be for his winter home in the city, so we may pick this top[ic back up in the fall.
Lehigh Defense used to manufacture maximum expansion rounds in 45 colt that were used in 410 capable revolvers. It was a 45 colt round with an extra long copper projectile that was split so it opened up in 4 tines upon expansion making a wickedly large wound cavity. I don't think they make the round any more since the company was sold. Maybe it was deemed too deadly?
45 Long Colt 250gr. Xtreme Penetrator® Solid Monolithic Hunting & Self Defense Ammo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icy Tea
Lehigh Defense used to manufacture maximum expansion rounds in 45 colt that were used in 410 capable revolvers. It was a 45 colt round with an extra long copper projectile that was split so it opened up in 4 tines upon expansion making a wickedly large wound cavity. I don't think they make the round any more since the company was sold. Maybe it was deemed too deadly?
Lehigh still makes a CNC-machined copper 45 projectile, e.g. this loading by Underwood:
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