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Anecdotes are not data. And your interpretation of your experience is probably different from an unbiased third party's interpretation.
You even said that you had experiences where you *assumed* the reaction was because of your race. But you don't know, because you beat a hasty retreat.
We have: You... a young, college-age, white male perhaps applying for some of the same service jobs as local folks... had many bad experiences with locals. I... an older, professional, white woman who came here specifically for a job that is seen as helping the community in many ways... have never had such an experience. So whose experience wins? Why is your experience the truth and mine is not? Maybe there's something more complicated than just cut-and-dried racism going on, dontcha think?
Anecdotes are not data. And your interpretation of your experience is probably different from an unbiased third party's interpretation.
You even said that you had experiences where you *assumed* the reaction was because of your race. But you don't know, because you beat a hasty retreat.
We have: You... a young, college-age, white male perhaps applying for some of the same service jobs as local folks... had many bad experiences with locals. I... an older, professional, white woman who came here specifically for a job that is seen as helping the community in many ways... have never had such an experience. So whose experience wins? Why is your experience the truth and mine is not? Maybe there's something more complicated than just cut-and-dried racism going on, dontcha think?
Anecdotes are not data. And your interpretation of your experience is probably different from an unbiased third party's interpretation.
You even said that you had experiences where you *assumed* the reaction was because of your race. But you don't know, because you beat a hasty retreat.
We have: You... a young, college-age, white male perhaps applying for some of the same service jobs as local folks... had many bad experiences with locals. I... an older, professional, white woman who came here specifically for a job that is seen as helping the community in many ways... have never had such an experience. So whose experience wins? Why is your experience the truth and mine is not? Maybe there's something more complicated than just cut-and-dried racism going on, dontcha think?
Damn, I am all ready to peacefully walk away and you call my factual real life experiences anecdotes... what other evidence of racism can there be other than the depiction of a situation where it blatantly occurred? You must be an english prof, short on facts, uses clever words, and selectively interprets. LOL
I had one experience where I assumed... why don't you give me your interpretation of the events. Three white men walk into a bar. All of the large polynesians immediately stop and stare at them. One of them walks towards me and rams his shoulder into mine as he passes then tells me that we need to leave. What should I assume? You want me to stick around and ask why? I just nodded and walked out, what would you do? If that happened to 3 black guys in alabama after they walked into a bar full of white people would you offer the same level of disbelief that it was a racially motivated incident?
As to the rest of the post...
First, I didn't claim your experience to be less valid than mine (just as I haven't said most of the things your posts have implied I said, you have just taken generous interpretive liberties rather than looking at the words), what I said is that the numerous experiences expressed on this forum, on other forums, on blogs in conversations, in police reports, in newspaper articles, and in my life support the idea that there is a racial/cultural divide that many mainland haoles have to be aware of and deal with in Hawaii. And that in a lot of ways, it makes them feel like they are not wanted there.
Second, why does either experience have to win? Why can't my experience be valid even if it differs from yours? I didn't attack your experience (except for maybe the ivory tower comment which just implies that you have probably interacted with a smaller percentage of the general population than I have)... yet you are attacking mine and attempting to minimize and invalidate it because it differs from yours. The real question is, why are you not sympathetic to it? I would expect that an "intelligent rational" academic such as yourself, that has noted in her comments that we existed in very different socio-economic circles for most of our stay in the islands, would acknowledge that maybe I was dealing with a different segment of the population that perhaps has a bit more resentment towards whitey than the people on a college campus... doncha think? Are we to dismiss that entire segment of the population because you haven't interacted with them? How much time to you spend in Papakolea? Waipahu? Waimanalo? Ewa Beach? KPT? Pua Lane? Kalihi? I think you actually supported what I was saying without even realizing it.
And I feel like I must address the anecdote comment because I know what that word generally implies... if anyone was presenting anecdotes and trying to pass them as fact, it was this post of yours:
Quote:
Originally Posted by newUHprof
People do not cross the street, lock their car doors, or clutch their purses more tightly when they see us walking down the street.
We are not followed by store security, pretty blatantly, on a regular basis, in almost every nice store.
The hypocrisy of you minimizing my personal experiences after you presented the above statements as evidence is almost laughable. Even you have to admit that.
Come on now, seriously... you won't admit that there is racial tension towards the white man in Hawaii? SERIOUSLY? I am beginning to question if you have even interacted with anyone outside of campus. Even USA Today wrote a story on it.
She explains why many Hawaiians don't like Haoles, she is a Hawaiian, will you discredit her story?
It just baffles me that someone would try to deny the fact that there is racial tension towards whites in Hawaii. Especially when I am not even trying to say it is unjustified (that is a whole other debate)... I am just trying to get you to acknowledge its existence.
Things that I do not hear haoles in Hawaii complain about & have never witnessed happening:
We are not stopped regularly by cops while driving through certain neighborhoods, for no clear reason. (Google "DWB: driving while black".)
People do not cross the street, lock their car doors, or clutch their purses more tightly when they see us walking down the street.
We are not followed by store security, pretty blatantly, on a regular basis, in almost every nice store.
There are not frequent roundups of young haole guys when a crime has been committed by an assailant and the only description is "young white male."
I could go on, but I'll just say: No, the experience of being haole in Honolulu is NOTHING LIKE the experience of being black in most major American cities. And saying it is similar don't make it so.
Yes, All of the above does in fact happen to Haoles in Hawaii.
How much time to you spend in Papakolea? Waipahu? Waimanalo? Ewa Beach? KPT? Pua Lane? Kalihi?
My Haole husband spends a great amount of time in these areas. He works for days at a time when the job requires that he be there. He has not had one racial incident occur nor has anything been stolen or our vehicle (a Mercedes SUV) been broken into).
His work equipment is worth several hundreds of thousands yet not so much as a screwdriver has been touched.
Compare this to his experience to his job on the mainland where he was accused of being a White pig, a member of the KKK and a traitor to his Race for having married a woman who was not White. These incidents were constant and were instigated by other Caucasian, African Americans and Hispanics.
He is the same man with the same attitude and mannerisms; yup...his life here in Hawaii has been soooo tortuous.
A Mercedes SUV driven by a white man near KPT and the above listed place with $100,000+ worth of equipment. Doesn't sound like your husband uses common sense. I would definitely advise against anyone spending significant amounts of time in the above areas with these things. That is not a racial comment, it's just a simple poor vs. rich thing going on. Haole racism is real, it happens, it usually isn't very bad- not much more than some drunk person saying some dumb stuff. Occasionally it can get violent- like that one car accident when the local guy beat up the haole guy and wife. UHgrad and UHprof both make compelling arguments, but i have to side with the grad. As a white male you probably experience a lot more remarks and aggressive behavior when compared to a white woman. In any case the i thought this thread was about the asian-american experience in hawaii, but like most topics in the hawaii forum it has become a racial haole hate real or not debate. Like previously stated we should consolidate all racial discussions in one thread.
Slick-
While our Mercedes is personal property it is how he gets to the jobs in these areas. The expensive equipment is for USE at the jobs so it would be useless to arrive at a job without the necessary equipment.
His office used to be in the Kalihi flats and nothing was destroyed, stolen or broken into for the 8 months that the office was located there.
My husband is the only Haole at his job- he had no issues finding employment when he retired from the Army.
We move about the Island and we are not afraid to be ourselves. My hubby is polite and jovial but most of all he is RESPECTFUL (but not obsequious) towards everybody.
The most unpleasant people that we deal with are in the upper income brackets, not the people in the so called "bad" areas of the Island.
Sorry for the hijack but I usually follow the 'flow' of the posts, sometimes forgetting the original topic.
How much time to you spend in Papakolea? Waipahu? Waimanalo? Ewa Beach? KPT? Pua Lane? Kalihi?
I actually dated a girl in Wahiawa, a Hawaiian Girl... whose cousins lived in Ewa Beach and Papakolea. We hung out there and BBQ'd a lot. They would take me surfing out at Keaau beach park in Waianae sometimes. I lived right up the street from Pua Lane, up Liliha... I would cut through there to get to Nimitz so that I could ride down to Sand Island all the time. I was spit on a couple times as I rode through on my moped, could have just been *******s, I don't know, htey didn't say anything to me. I didn't spend much time in Kalihi or KPT to be fair, but her cousins telling me not to go there was enough to convince me that it wasn't worth doing without a reason.
The ironic thing about this conversation is that I feel like I know what I am talking about because I got the full on braddah braddah backstage pass to the island. I was a technician for the city for 3 years, worked in almost every part of Oahu from Kahuku to Waialua to Kaaawa to Waikiki. I married a local girl, listened to the nonsense her uncles spouted off about the mainland (even though they had only been to vegas) and how "local style" is better than "mainland style" in every imaginable regard. I heard them say bad things about "freaking haoles" right in front of my face... then apologize and correct themselves when they realized I was offended. I worked with plenty of Hawaiians. I went to beach luau's where we sat around, drank, ate, and played music. I went to their houses, met their families, made wonderful friendships. They even liked me enough to try and fix me up with some of their nieces. I had terrific conversations with them about life and we even occasionally touched on the haole issue. I have always maintained that the culture overall is warm and welcoming and that 95% of the people there are good, hard working, friendly folks. I didn't leave because of racism. I left because of $400k condo's, $700k single family homes, terrible traffic, lousy public schools, and island fever. I like it out there, we visit frequently to see my wife's family. That being said, I also got to hear first hand what a lot of them thought about outsiders, and particularly the stereotypical "mainland haole". I observed a lot of the underlying resentment that many locals have towards people coming in and raising the cost of living to ridiculous levels, moving into their neighborhoods, taking their jobs, and trying to impose their culture on them. I am not saying that this stuff isn't justified or without reason... that is a complicated question. I am just saying that it exists and prospective transplants need to be aware of it. There is an underlying racial tension out there sometimes.... and there is a lot of resentment towars the haole in certain circles. That is all. Be aware. To me it almost goes without saying so it is hard for me to understand why there is so much opposition to even admitting that much.
She explains why many Hawaiians don't like Haoles, she is a Hawaiian, will you discredit her story?
Considering Haunani-Kay Trask's California birth, privileged upbringing, haole genealogy, and long-time boyfriend David E. Stannard (who happens to be a haole), she doesn't represent all Hawaiians. For the most part, what she practices in her personal life and what she preaches are quite different.
Considering Haunani-Kay Trask's California birth, privileged upbringing, haole genealogy, and long-time boyfriend David E. Stannard (who happens to be a haole), she doesn't represent all Hawaiians. For the most part, what she practices in her personal life and what she preaches are quite different.
No, she definitely does not represent all Hawaiians. I hope I didn't imply that she did. Just giving an example to illustrate a point. She actually seems pretty nice in person when I saw her at a talk. I just wanted people to read the words, because there are people there that feel that way... at least to some extent.
Last edited by UHgrad; 09-30-2010 at 08:02 PM..
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