Okay it happened again -obamacare talk (medical, oral, Massachusetts, government)

[Jimbo Buffet]

Originally Posted by bUU

The Affordable Care Act expands Medicaid coverage to millions of low-income Americans and makes numerous improvements to both Medicaid and the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP). So that pharmacist is a political hack just spewing nonsense to foster fear, uncertainty and doubt among seniors, probably because he thinks it'll help his own account balance.

you sound like another one of these socialist hacks. This act is redistribution, in plain sight. If people want insurance they should buy it on their own and not expect me to pay for it. Similarly, I don't expect you to pay for me.

[ColdAilment]

Originally Posted by Jimbo Buffet

you sound like another one of these socialist hacks. This act is redistribution, in plain sight. If people want insurance they should buy it on their own and not expect me to pay for it. Similarly, I don't expect you to pay for me.

Curious, why is it redistribution?

It's requiring everyone to have health insurance, and requiring all companies with over 50 employees to provide health insurance to their employees. Everyone on the road is required to have auto insurance, correct? It is the law, nothing socialist about that, is there?

[bUU]

Originally Posted by sirron

I'm not ignoring anything. Everything I posted is ...

... incomplete.

Originally Posted by Jimbo Buffet

you sound like another one of these socialist hacks.

You sound like another one of these hacks that cannot defend their perspective without hiding behind vacuous characterizations of others.

I'm a capitalist. I'm compassionate. Don't get huffy because you cannot figure out how to be both.

[R_Cowgirl]

"I just see a huge train wreck coming down." -- Senator Max Baucus

"We've got millions of people -- working class, middle-class people -- who are going to be pushed into a regulatory health coverage no man's land." -- Senator Ron Wyden (D-OR)

"Obamacare is the most complex piece of legislation ever passed. It's beyond comprehension." -- Senator Jay Rockefeller (D-WV)

"The people are going to suffer and I want someone to be held accountable." -- Senator Bill Nelson (D-FL)

"Insurance rates are going up because of Obamacare." -- Senator Chuck Schumer (D-NY)

The application is now online.
The directions to fill it out - 60 pages long.
The application is 15 pages.
Three separate agencies will have to review it to see if you qualify.
The bill is now 20,000 pages long and growing.
You will have to grant access to the government to check your bank accounts at any time to insure you still qualify.
Applying for Obamacare Will Not Be As Easy As Hyped

Organizations are dropping their staffing below 26 hours and having people share jobs.

The dumb thing is - Hawaii has a very effective, 30-year proven health insurance law that makes sure everyone is covered. Corporations and Healthcare groups were consulted. It has been tweaked over the last 3 decades to make sure it works for everyone and no one is left out. It WORKS. And the bill is about 100 pages long. If our government really wanted to do it right, they could have lifted Hawaii's law word for word and implemented it... without adding 152 "commissions." Without destroying the private and very successful student loan industry (yes, that is in Obamacare.) Without making us jump through hoops to take out the onerous W-9 reporting fiasco that was to go into effect in January of this year. Without a 15 page application that gives up all your rights. There IS a better way than this bill...

As the Dems are finding out -- "We have to pass this bill to see what's in it!" (Nancy Pelosi)
and many of the Dems are stepping away from it. It's an unmitigated nightmare.

And I DiD read the 900 page recap of the bill, so I know whereof I speak.

[bUU]

Except you refuse to acknowledge that Romneycare has been running here for over six years without any of the doom and gloom you're predicting happening here.

I guess you feel that my state is just that much better than your state.

[phonelady61]

Originally Posted by ColdAilment

Curious, why is it redistribution?

It's requiring everyone to have health insurance, and requiring all companies with over 50 employees to provide health insurance to their employees. Everyone on the road is required to have auto insurance, correct? It is the law, nothing socialist about that, is there?

yes and because the government will require ppl without insurance to get insurance through their employer alot of companies will shut down and businesses will shut their doors and go out of business . My sister has to find another job soon because her boss has already told them that he will be shutting his doors because he refuses to give the government anymore of his money . So I see the obamacare putting alot of people to living in their cars because they cant afford an apt or house and pay for healthcare too plus their food and other exspenses . yeah affordable is not what I would call it at all .

[sourcesc]

Sorry to hear about your unwanted disability. I don’t think that this country will let you or others truly in need down.

Now, into the PPACA fray.

Let’s look at this logically. Insurance companies have limits on their policies for a reason. Premium dollars can’t cover limitless plans. The economics just don’t work. With Obombacare, oops, I meant Obamacare, those with pre-existing conditions will now have to be covered. Cha-ching. Life time coverage limits are a thing of the past. Cha-ching. Those who are not healthy will now have access to subsidized coverage and claims will naturally rise. Cha-ching. Younger healthier people will be forced to pay for older sicker people because of the fewer segmentations. Cha-ching.

When expenses rise and you produce no additional income (save what the government prints - inflationary) premiums and out of pocket costs must increase. Predictions of increases from various sources range from 30 to 110 percent. With so much speculation you’ll just have to stay tuned to see what really shakes out. My bet is 45 to 55%.


PS Watch what happens on the steps of the Supreme Court come January 2nd, 2014.

[Jimbo Buffet]

Originally Posted by bUU

... incomplete.


You sound like another one of these hacks that cannot defend their perspective without hiding behind vacuous characterizations of others.

I'm a capitalist. I'm compassionate. Don't get huffy because you cannot figure out how to be both.

You CANNOT be A Capitalist, And want distribution....i dont want anyone to ever pay for me....

[Jimbo Buffet]

Originally Posted by bUU

Except you refuse to acknowledge that Romneycare has been running here for over six years without any of the doom and gloom you're predicting happening here.

I guess you feel that my state is just that much better than your state.

Romney was an idiot Mass. Liberal who i would have never voted for. Thats why i wrote in Herm. Cain

[R_Cowgirl]

Originally Posted by bUU

Except you refuse to acknowledge that Romneycare has been running here for over six years without any of the doom and gloom you're predicting happening here.

I guess you feel that my state is just that much better than your state.

I don't know where you are from - your name doesn't say that. I'm not "refusing to acknowledge" anything! Your comment is a non sequiter since Romney care is different than obamacare. There's a pretty good set of reasons why Romney care has been operating for "6 years without the doom and gloom." Really - go read the recaps of obamacare... it's not the same.

I brought up Hawaii because I know about it, I've seen it work, and I helped implement Hawaii's health care reform thirty years ago, so I know that bill fairly well. And I know the tweaks and changes they've made to accommodate all the concerns of everyone.

This ACA bill has so much pork, so many mandates, so many non-healthcare provisions, and so much crap added to it that it's a nightmare. Many Democrats who originally supported it are backing away from it. They are the ones whose feet are being held to the fire.

Also - obamacare is NOT romneycare. Just as obamacare is not the Hawaii healthcare law. If you support obamacare because the Massachusetts law works, then you haven't done your homework...

Since you brought it up... here are some of the differences between the two laws

Overall Scope
Romney care:
- The bill is 70 pages long
- Romney vetoed significant sections of the bill including the employer penalty for not providing health insurance.
-Romney favored an “opt out” provision from the mandate
-No federal govt. insurance option
-Intended as a market driven solution to healthcare

Obamacare:
-The bill was 2,074 pages (has now ballooned to more than 20,000 pages with added regulations)

-Very broad regulation of the insurance industry including an employer penalty for not providing health insurance and no "opt out" provision
- Leaves open the option of creating single-payer govt. insurance in the future
- Intended as a step toward govt. run insurance
- Favored groups such as unions and (being debated now) members of Congress being exempted


Costs
Romney Care:
-No new taxes were imposed to pay for this insurance

- The state’s budget was balanced first, then they passed the healthcare law
-No cuts to Medicare benefits
-Modest cost to state (only added 1% to state budget)

Obamacare:
-Increased taxes by $500 billion
-Despite massive federal govt. debt, Obamacare was still passed
- Hidden taxes, newly formed commissions, enforcement agencies, and onerous small business laws were included to help pay for the provisions -- most of which were ignored or missed by Congress as they were discussing it. Only now are we seeing what all those additional items were and what they mean.
- Cuts to Medicare equaling or exceeding $500 billion
- Overall costs unknown and growing

Popularity
Romneycare:
- Strong bipartisan support as it moved through the process
- Strong special interest support - hospitals, doctors, corporations, individuals all supported this during its creation and implementation

-Very popular among the public in Massachusetts
-Strong consensus of approval was built in the state to support the law
-Consensus was built to support an individual mandate


Obamacare:
-Absolutely no bipartisan support
-Very controversial and divided special interest groups
-Unpopular in nation overall - Currently 55% view the law unfavorably (Rasmussen poll) CNN did a poll in 2011 that showed half favored repealing the bill altogether and only 6% favored it the way it was written
-No consensus was ever built to support a mandate

Constitutionality
Romneycare:
-Constitutional both according to Massachusetts Constitution and the US Constitution

-Regardless of how the Supreme Court rules on Obamacare, Romneycare will remain Constitutional (see note under Federalism - it's a STATE solution to a STATE problem.)

Obamacare:
- Penalties for non-compliance against individuals
- Potentially unconstitutional
- Supreme Court has yet to rule on 10th amendment limitations of federal govt. power regarding this law
- Implementation promises to be unwieldy and invasive. Three agencies will be looking at your private information; they will have access to all your bank records once you apply and have given themselves the right to snoop into your private accounts any time they want after that
- This is one step closer to the National ID they are trying to push through (nothing works in a vacuum)

Federalism
Romneycare:
- A state solution to a state problem (Just as state-by-state vehicle insurance laws take the needs of the state into consideration, Romneycare - and the Hawaii law - are created to address local concerns)

-Through collaboration and discussion, Massachusetts created a consensus among stake holders to support the new law

Obamacare:
- Federal gov. “one-size-fits-all” plan - which rarely works.
- States' Rights are being attacked with a law like this that crosses State lines.
- There are numerous questions about the Federal govt's ability and rights to force the purchase of anything on all citizens of the US. These challenges are currently pending before the Supreme Court.

-Doesn’t take into account that each state is unique in important ways such as:

1 )Vastly different debt levels between states (some states can’t afford new spending on health care)
2) Some states have three times the percentage of uninsured citizens (Much greater costs will be imposed on states with a larger percentage of uninusured citizens)
3) Conservative states will reject implementation of federal govt. plan.




Thanks to Ben for your help with this, to my assistant for the research, and for the State of Mass. for printing a recap of your bill. The above is a paraphrasing of numerous sources, including the text of the ACA bill.