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The problem we are dealing with today seems the freedom of religion clause has changed to freedom from religion.
Freedom FROM religion is, and has always been, part of the First Amendment. However, many people do not understand how that actually plays out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCN
I was in an exercise class recently that was dealing with stretching exercises. The instructor made the statement that he had just been informed that he was doing yoga. Another person in the class that was a yoga fan said that if the class had stated yoga that a lot of people would not be there. I made the statement that she was right and I would be one of those that would not be taking the class. I told her that I had tried one of the yoga classes and realized that it made me uncomfortable to do it. She wanted me to tell her why. I told her that it was a religious thing. I felt that she was just wanting to tell me that she was a Christian too and there was nothing wrong with it. I though she was out of line in questioning me about it because she was an employee of the organization. As a private citizen, I have a right to not take a class for any reason and I don't expect to go into a class that has nothing to do with that and hear an employee making remarks making fun of my religious beliefs.
If you reported the employee's statements accurately, I see no attempt at "making fun of my religious beliefs" there. She merely presented a differing viewpoint, a right that is ALSO protected by the First Amendment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCN
I was fine with the yoga until they stopped exercising and started "breathing for inner peace." The peace of God has nothing to do with the way you breathe. The peace that passeth all understanding can come to a person when they are standing in a firing line waiting for the gun to go off holding their breath or whatever.
He has a very good class going, but not once has he told us how to breathe. I was always taught that breathing is automatic. I don't need for someone to tell me when to breathe or how to breathe. Thank you very much!
Actually, and with all due respect, it appears that (a) you know virtually nothing about yoga because you are attempting to draw parallels where none exist, (b) you don't know that deep-breathing exercises are commonly used in relaxation training conducted by physicians, psychologists and other health professionals, and (c) you may in fact be attempting to impose your personal interpretation of Christianity upon everyone in that class.
You see, in the United States everyone has the right of religious freedom, which includes freedom FROM religion. Each person's religious freedom ends just short of the point where it begins to interfere with the religious freedom of others.
Regards,
-- Nighteyes
Last edited by Nighteyes; 11-18-2010 at 09:52 AM..
Hummmmmm, as a devout and steadfast Atheist, I suspect that religion has been the bane of society for at least the last 1000 years. Humanity has shown great imagination in the manners in which they kill those who believe differently than themselves. The old "Us" versus "Them" thing. Some religions seem to take great pride and diligence in building an "Us vs. Them" mindset.
I think that those who have asserted a "freedom from religion" right are not being entirely accurate. What the first amendement is actually stating is that the government is not going to be in the religion business, it will not promote a particular relgion, it will not oblige the citizens to subscribe to a particular religion, and it will not interfere with the private practice of religion.
"Freedom from religion" suggests we enjoy some special round the clock protection from being exposed to religion and that is not the case. If we truly did have a right to be free of religion, then there would be no singing of "God Bless America" at ballparks...the government is protecting you from such things. Congress could not open meetings with prayers, "In God We Trust" would have to be removed from our currency, churches and temples would have to be located in special religion zones that have been given exemptions from the protective statutes.
Change "freedom from religion" to freedom from religious obligations, and you will have corrected the statement.
I think that those who have asserted a "freedom from religion" right are not being entirely accurate. What the first amendement is actually stating is that the government is not going to be in the religion business, it will not promote a particular relgion, it will not oblige the citizens to subscribe to a particular religion, and it will not interfere with the private practice of religion.
"Freedom from religion" suggests we enjoy some special round the clock protection from being exposed to religion and that is not the case. If we truly did have a right to be free of religion, then there would be no singing of "God Bless America" at ballparks...the government is protecting you from such things. Congress could not open meetings with prayers, "In God We Trust" would have to be removed from our currency, churches and temples would have to be located in special religion zones that have been given exemptions from the protective statutes.
Change "freedom from religion" to freedom from religious obligations, and you will have corrected the statement.
Your argument is neither with me nor any other individual. Your argument is with the cumulative decisions of the Supreme Court. And I find that you have significantly misinterpreted those decisions.
In summary, the First Amendment prohibits the federal government from any action (or inaction) that favors the practice of any religion over any other, and from any action (or inaction) that prohibits or limits the free exercise of any religion.
Again in summary, the Fourteenth Amendment (ramrodded through by self-proclaimed "Radical Republicans" in the aftermath of the Civil War) applies all of the Bill of Rights to state and local governments within the United States.
Through several decisions, the Supreme Court has repeatedly held that these also apply to the freedom FROM religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander
If we truly did have a right to be free of religion, then there would be no singing of "God Bless America" at ballparks...
If those ballparks were created and are maintained by public funds (taxes, etc.), they are part of "government" so that is true. If, on the other hand, they are private ballparks, no such limitation applies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander
Congress could not open meetings with prayers,
This hasn't yet been tested in court. Therefore any statements, either pro or con, are purely speculative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander
"In God We Trust" would have to be removed from our currency...
That particular phrase became the official United States motto during the McCarthy "Red Scare" of the 1950's, and was then placed on our currency. The previous US motto, dating all the way back to its foundation, was E Pluribus Unum ("out of many, one"), and our currency was so marked. Again, this hasn't yet been tested in court, so any positions are purely speculative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander
... churches and temples would have to be located in special religion zones that have been given exemptions from the protective statutes.
With all due respect, where the heck did you get that one???
As long as they are on private property, and as long as they are in compliance with local zoning, building and safety codes, our laws prohibit any ban on churches, temples, synagogues or other religious structures. As long as they are on private property, our laws prohibit any ban on the display of religious symbols (Crosses, Menorahs, etc.).
The problems have come, and will continue to come, whenever people of any religion attempt to display or build religious symbols and structures on public property (public schools, public parks, government facilities, etc.).
I do not expect that you will take my word for it. Therefore, I suggest that you review the Constitution, and all the pertinent laws and court decisions.
Nighteyes....for all your above words, you never addressed the actual question. There is no such thing as a freedom from religion, it is a freedom from religious obligation. You went so far in the wrong direction with your response that I'm guessing that you are not understanding the distinction.
As I noted, add the word "obligation" and you are on solid ground.
That particular phrase became the official United States motto during the McCarthy "Red Scare" of the 1950's, and was then placed on our currency. The previous US motto, dating all the way back to its foundation, was E Pluribus Unum ("out of many, one"), and our currency was so marked. Again, this hasn't yet been tested in court, so any positions are purely speculative.
You are incorrect with the above. The motto was placed on our currency in 1864, during the LIncoln administration. It was a response to a campaign by a Northern preacher and Lincoln feared offending, and losing the support of, religious voters. In 1864 Lincoln had become convinced that he would not be reelected and that the cause of the Union would die with his replacement, as a consequence, he went along with the idea.
Since that time, the motto has faced challenges which have reached the Supreme Court and the ruling was that the motto, via constant repetition, had become a patriotic slogan rather than a religious message. This was the court's means for allowing it to stand.
What you are referencing, I think, is when a law was passed which required that the motto appear on currency, where before the existing law from Lincoln's time "allowed" it to appear. That happened in the 1950's, but the motto had been appearing on US currency for nearly 90 years before that.
Historically speaking, religions have seldom been proponents of Human Rights.
Actually, both the abolition movement and civil rights movements were driven by religion. And there are even whole sects dedicated to the concept of "Thou shalt not kill". The Quakers being a prime example. They are pacifists, and I'm pretty sure that they don't believe in the death penalty either.
Nighteyes....for all your above words, you never addressed the actual question. There is no such thing as a freedom from religion, it is a freedom from religious obligation. You went so far in the wrong direction with your response that I'm guessing that you are not understanding the distinction.
As I noted, add the word "obligation" and you are on solid ground.
Grandstander, perhaps we may be arguing about a distinction without a difference.
However, my original caveats regarding ballparks/private property and your "religious zones" still stand.
Last edited by Nighteyes; 11-18-2010 at 04:54 PM..
You are incorrect with the above. The motto was placed on our currency in 1864, during the LIncoln administration. It was a response to a campaign by a Northern preacher and Lincoln feared offending, and losing the support of, religious voters. In 1864 Lincoln had become convinced that he would not be reelected and that the cause of the Union would die with his replacement, as a consequence, he went along with the idea.
Since that time, the motto has faced challenges which have reached the Supreme Court and the ruling was that the motto, via constant repetition, had become a patriotic slogan rather than a religious message. This was the court's means for allowing it to stand.
What you are referencing, I think, is when a law was passed which required that the motto appear on currency, where before the existing law from Lincoln's time "allowed" it to appear. That happened in the 1950's, but the motto had been appearing on US currency for nearly 90 years before that.
You can look it up.
Actually, I did, and you are more-or-less correct. It did not appear on PAPER currency before the 1950's, but it did appear from time to time on some coinage well before that. Here's a link to a historical section of the US Treasury website:U.S. Treasury - Fact Sheet on the History of"In God We Trust"
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