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FDR was one of the greatest Presidents in the history of this country. ...........
Perhaps, all of us could actually learn a little from you if you tried to explain yourself, rather than simply offering horseback opinions that are out-of-synch with what most people think.
Uh Oh....Public Education system got another one.
That's what we were all taught. And believed, too, until we got old enough to read some history other than high school text books.
FDR ran the federal income tax rate all the way to 95%. 95%. What kind of government could possible justify that rate?
But you are generally right about Social Security. People absolutely will not save for their retirement. We have to have some sort of mandatory system.
That's what we were all taught. And believed, too, until we got old enough to read some history other than high school text books.
FDR ran the federal income tax rate all the way to 95%. 95%. What kind of government could possible justify that rate?
But you are generally right about Social Security. People absolutely will not save for their retirement. We have to have some sort of mandatory system.
Without getting into a lengthy explanation, the top rate peaked at 91% in 1944 where it remained until 1964. While that sounds draconian, several things need to be taken into account...
1. Taxation is progressive and during that time there were roughly 24-32 (depending on the year) brackets vs. 7 today. Those peak tax rates only applied to income above a certain threshold and impacted very, very few people. When the rates were that high the top bracket was only applied to incomes over $2.5-$2.75 million dollars in today's money beginning with the first dollar beyond that amount. During the actual Depression years the peak rate average around 79% on earnings above $80 million in todays money. Overall, the high peak rates you are attributing to FDR occurred during WW2.
2. Capital gains taxation was very different then, but was still the largest source of income for the wealthy. Given the various exclusions and "asset holding" ladders, anyone who made enough money to actually care could easily avoid the most draconian tax rates.
3. The rates established by FDR lasted through the Truman and Eisenhower years and were first rolled back by LBJ with bipartisan support in 1964. This fulfilled a campaign promise of JFK to enact a tax cut and tax code reform.
4. The modern rates at "only" 35%-39.6% peak kick in at around $400,000 of income. Further, the lower brackets are much higher at 10% versus around 4% during the Depression, but are lower than the 15%-20% rates seen during WW2 and the post-war years. Capital gains has also become far more tax laden. The overall result is a balancing between personal income tax and capital gains, that while having seemingly low rates, do to the bracketing actually serves to mean the effective rates are higher now for extreme income earners than they were then.
5. One can see the interplay in the last sentence in number 4 by looking at the increase in personal income tax receipts on a per capita basis. They are much higher now than they were when the peak rate was at 91%. Some of that has to do with the creation of S-Corp's and LLC's because they shifted revenue from "corporations" to "individuals" as S-Corp and LLC owners pay taxes at the personal rate.
FDR was one of the greatest Presidents in the history of this country. Social Security may be his crowning achievement.
Because of demographic changes it needs fine tuning. However, there is nothing inherently wrong with the government creating this kind of social insurance.
Perhaps, all of us could actually learn a little from you if you tried to explain yourself, rather than simply offering horseback opinions that are out-of-synch with what most people think.
When Roosevelt signed Social Security Act in 1937, the average American died at age 55. There was a reason for this apart from the rich and powerful most of American's seniors lived on pannies a day, never saw the inside of a doctor's office let alone a hospital and were by even the standards of that day poorly housed, ill clothed and malnourished. Social Security's only problem is it worked and has given the average American nearly 30 years of extra life and a life worth living. Many younger Americans today have met their grand parents and some even their great grandparents who are still living. FDR is the only President from the 20th Century who deserves to be included with Lincoln from the 19th and Washington from the 18th in the American Pantheon. The over 70 million Americans receiving Social Security are his legacy .
That's what we were all taught. And believed, too, until we got old enough to read some history other than high school text books.
FDR ran the federal income tax rate all the way to 95%. 95%. What kind of government could possible justify that rate?
This is deceptive. A top tax rate may have at one point been 95%. The way the tax code worked though that doesn't mean the people at the top were actually paying 95% of their income in taxes. Only the top portion of their income was taxed at that rate and that's before deductions and exemptions were taken. The effective tax rate for the top income earners was far less than 95%.
The rate sounds high, but circumstances also have to be considered. FDR was President during World War II and the only way the country could fight that war was by enormous deficit spending. In this environment, top earners had to be taxed at a very high rate. You wouldn't have wanted the country to default on its war bonds, would you?
I'm something of amateur historian and perhaps we could compare books we've read about Roosevelt. For starters, this product of "public education" has read "No Ordinary Time" by Doris Kearns Goodwin and the "Glory and the Dream" by William Manchester.
Just exactly what have you read about FDR and his administration?
This is deceptive. A top tax rate may have at one point been 95%. The way the tax code worked though that doesn't mean the people at the top were actually paying 95% of their income in taxes. Only the top portion of their income was taxed at that rate and that's before deductions and exemptions were taken. The effective tax rate for the top income earners was far less than 95%.
The rate sounds high, but circumstances also have to be considered. FDR was President during World War II and the only way the country could fight that war was by enormous deficit spending. In this environment, top earners had to be taxed at a very high rate........
I'll answer the rest of your FDR questions when I get a few minutes, but I did want to answer your comments about that 90% tax rate.
For the record, the tax rate did not apply before deductions; it applies after deductions.
What kind of country, I ask again, would require that anyone - anyone at all - forfeit 90% of the money he has earned and send it to the government?! I am old enough to know all about the progressive nature of our tax system, and I am wealthy enough to have participated fully in its application, so I don't need to be told how it works. We can agree that the progressive rate idea is a good idea, but no country should ever, under any circumstances, acknowledge that someone has earned money legally and then confiscate virtually all of his top portion.
FDR proposed a 99 1/2% tax rate for those making over $100,000. When his cabinet was aghast at the rate, he said, "Why not? None of us will ever make $100,000". And he meant no one in the room!
On one hand, you say almost no one was affected, and on the other you say the government needed the money. I suggest you sit and think about your position a while.
..........Just exactly what have you read about FDR and his administration?
Actually quite a lot. My main interest is Roman history, but I am able to discuss American history as well. Here are my notes on FDR:
Caused the second depression
Look it up. The first depression was making a recovery until the tax increase of 1937. Then it came back with a vengeance. The cause, according to a great many experts, was FDR’s tax increase. Just for the wealthy? No. To fund the war? Not yet. The lower rates jumped from 1.5% to 4%, and the top bracket went to 79% for anyone reporting above 5 mil. But that was just to get the rate established, because in a few years the top rate dropped to $200,000. Under FDR there was simply no way for the American entrepreneur to establish a new business, and new businesses were the one thing that America needed.
Imprisoned 100,000 American based upon their ethnicity
Are you kidding me?! In the USA we imprisoned people because once, in their history, they had relatives who lived in Japan. Not only did we imprison them, but we confiscated their businesses and their property. They never got it back. Didn't matter that they only spoke English and had been born here. (my Brother In Law was in one of those camps as a child) And today, smiling, pleasant sixth grade teachers just gloss over it.
The National Recovery Administration
FDR said the goal was to eliminate ‘cut throat competition’. It did. It tilted the table of competition to heavily favor established corporations by establishing prices and wages. Not minimum wages, mind you. Wages for work was set and a business could not pay less than what the NRA dictated.
It was unconstitutional. The Supreme Court said so. FDR did it anyway. Disobeyed The Supreme Court! And in doing so extended the authority of the US government far beyond what was intended or even legal.
Judicial Procedures Reform Bill of 1937
The court packing bill. Because FDR had been found to be in violation of Constitutional provisions, he proposed a bill which would expand the number of judges. He wanted to appoint an additional 6 judges so that he would never again be embarrassed by breaking the law.
Confiscated people's gold
When FDR decided he would no longer allow American citizens to own gold he used force when he thought it was necessary. Agents would go into you home and take away your gold. Take it away! I won't go into all the stuff about gold standard, but I will assure you that people lost their gold under FDR. And that is almost never taught in basic history. If it is taught it is then followed by the usual, "And then he got us out of the Great Depression". Which he didn't.
Actually quite a lot. My main interest is Roman history, but I am able to discuss American history as well. Here are my notes on FDR:
FDR is not my favorite for a couple of reasons, some of which you touch on, but there are some inaccuracies here...
Quote:
Caused the second depression
Look it up. The first depression was making a recovery until the tax increase of 1937. Then it came back with a vengeance. The cause, according to a great many experts, was FDR’s tax increase. Just for the wealthy? No. To fund the war? Not yet. The lower rates jumped from 1.5% to 4%, and the top bracket went to 79% for anyone reporting above 5 mil. But that was just to get the rate established, because in a few years the top rate dropped to $200,000. Under FDR there was simply no way for the American entrepreneur to establish a new business, and new businesses were the one thing that America needed.
Here is the table on the tax rates based on when they changed...
Year Enacted...Number of Brackets...Bottom Rate...Top Rate...Income...Income in 2011 Dollars:
The tax rate changed in 1936, which was the year of the double-dip depression. However, the bottom rate stayed the same and while a new much higher 79% top bracket was created this only impacted people once they earned $5 million a year or nearly $81 million in today's money. The drop to the $200,000 rate "in a few years" occurred during WW2 and had everything to do with the war. It's impact on small business creation is questionable, because those same rates were maintained from 1944-1964 which would cover one of the largest economic booms in American history.
There was a double-dip in 1936. There are two schools of thought on why...
1. The social safety nets that had been established in the early Depression years were pulled back. FDR greatly reduced government spending and if you're a Keynesian the result was predictable.
2. The extensive tampering with the business sector regarding labor rights, wages, price controls, tarriffs, etc. created a stagnant business environment leading to a reduction of buying and lay-offs as companies horded cash.
Quote:
Imprisoned 100,000 American based upon their ethnicity
Are you kidding me?! In the USA we imprisoned people because once, in their history, they had relatives who lived in Japan. Not only did we imprison them, but we confiscated their businesses and their property. They never got it back. Didn't matter that they only spoke English and had been born here. (my Brother In Law was in one of those camps as a child) And today, smiling, pleasant sixth grade teachers just gloss over it.
A very dark chapter in America's history.
Quote:
The National Recovery Administration
FDR said the goal was to eliminate ‘cut throat competition’. It did. It tilted the table of competition to heavily favor established corporations by establishing prices and wages. Not minimum wages, mind you. Wages for work was set and a business could not pay less than what the NRA dictated.
It was unconstitutional. The Supreme Court said so. FDR did it anyway. Disobeyed The Supreme Court! And in doing so extended the authority of the US government far beyond what was intended or even legal.
One of FDR's most flagrant abuses of power and what is often blamed as part of number "2" above for causing the double-dip in 1936.
Quote:
Judicial Procedures Reform Bill of 1937
The court packing bill. Because FDR had been found to be in violation of Constitutional provisions, he proposed a bill which would expand the number of judges. He wanted to appoint an additional 6 judges so that he would never again be embarrassed by breaking the law.
Another of FDR's low points, no arguments from me.
Quote:
Confiscated people's gold
When FDR decided he would no longer allow American citizens to own gold he used force when he thought it was necessary. Agents would go into you home and take away your gold. Take it away! I won't go into all the stuff about gold standard, but I will assure you that people lost their gold under FDR. And that is almost never taught in basic history. If it is taught it is then followed by the usual, "And then he got us out of the Great Depression". Which he didn't.
Very few people were prosecuted and there were no agents going into peoples homes or siezing safe deposit boxes. The only people prosecuted were those who had or sold substantial amounts of gold after the required period of surrender. However, that doesn't make the overall decision any better. The justification was spun on there being a crisis and the government needed the gold to stabilize the banks and currency. At the same time, after the surrenders were made, the government changed the exchange value and devalued the currency overnight. It's impact on anything but shoring up the Fed was questionable. That isn't even touching on the morality.
FDR didn't totally bungle the war. He handed it off to the Generals and Admirals, made it clear what we needed to do and them let them do it. (Are ya listening, LBJ?)
I think Social Security is a necessity. I wish legislators to find the wherewithal to leave it alone, but that's another matter.
He was charismatic. Not particularly bright (he was a "C" student at Harvard) but people did react positively to him, especially if they didn't know him.
The worst decision was the Civil War. Not sure which president caused it. Civilized people should be able to sit down and talk and come to agreement on a compromise. The last thing any nation needs is to have its people fighting each other.
The worst decision was the Civil War. Not sure which president caused it. Civilized people should be able to sit down and talk and come to agreement on a compromise. The last thing any nation needs is to have its people fighting each other.
You need to understand the Civil War was started the moment our Founding Fathers many of them Slave holders including Mr Jefferson, Mr Washington, Mr Madison and Mr Monroe made the compromises that made the US Constitution possible. Without it we may have been a whole bunch of weak independent states that never developed the might needed to be a great power rather than the global giant we are right now. In maybe 50 or so years after the Treaty of Paris picked off one by one until British North America was in tact agian because Britain needed the resources and land. It would have made getting the 2nd British Empire much easier and less costly for the British.
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