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Japan was a signatory in the 9 Power Treaty that required all nine countries to allow the others to trade freely in Japan. After 1937 that was a dead letter. US businessmen in China came home with the clothes on their backs if they were lucky.
Oh, and this shot was taken at the Nanking Railway Terminal.
The kid was extracted from the rubble and put there while they looked for the rest of his family. None left alive, IIRC.
this is a silly topic.....The Empire of Japan only wanted to take out the U.S. Pacific Fleet for a 6 months to a year so they could seize the oil fields of the Dutch East Indies and the only thing standing in their way was the U.S. Naval Fleet which FDR pushed on them when he placed an oil embargo.
FDR did not want to cut off oil. As he told his Cabinet on July 18 1941, an embargo meant war, for that would force oil-starved Japan to seize the oil fields of the Dutch East Indies. But a State Department lawyer named Dean Acheson drew up the sanctions in such a way as to block any Japanese purchases of U.S. oil. By the time FDR found out, in September, he could not back down.
Tokyo was now split between a War Party and a Peace Party, with the latter in power. Prime Minister Konoye called in Ambassador Joseph Grew and secretly offered to meet FDR in Juneau or anywhere in the Pacific. According to Grew, Konoye was willing to give up Indochina and China, except a buffer region in the north to protect her from Stalin, in return for the U.S. brokering a peace with China and opening up the oil pipeline. Konoye told Grew that Emperor Hirohito knew of his initiative and was ready to give the order for Japan’s retreat.
Fearful of a “second Munich,” America spurned the offer. Konoye fell from power and was replaced by Hideki Tojo. Still, war was not inevitable. U.S. diplomats prepared to offer Japan a “modus vivendi.” If Japan withdrew from southern Indochina, the United States would partially lift the oil embargo. But Chiang Kai-shek became “hysterical,” and his American adviser, one Owen Lattimore, intervened to abort the proposal.
Facing a choice between death of the empire or fighting for its life, Japan decided to seize the oil fields of the Indies. And the only force capable of interfering was the U.S. fleet that FDR had conveniently moved from San Diego out to Honolulu.
Invading and occupying Hawaii had no purpose for Japan. Waste of resources for something they didn't need and never wanted.
this is a silly topic.....The Empire of Japan only wanted to take out the U.S. Pacific Fleet for a 6 months to a year so they could seize the oil fields of the Dutch East Indies and the only thing standing in their way was the U.S. Naval Fleet which FDR pushed on them when he placed an oil embargo.
People frequently skip the events that provoked the oil embargo and that fact that Japan had slipped well down the list of customers for our oil by July 1941. US consumers, US military needs, and Britain were taking everything we could give them.
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FDR did not want to cut off oil. As he told his Cabinet on July 18 1941, an embargo meant war, for that would force oil-starved Japan to seize the oil fields of the Dutch East Indies. But a State Department lawyer named Dean Acheson drew up the sanctions in such a way as to block any Japanese purchases of U.S. oil. By the time FDR found out, in September, he could not back down.
Acheson wrote the order, FDR signed it, Morgenthau and Ickes altered it. It originally read "aviation-grade gasoline", and M & I changed it to "all petroleum products".
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Tokyo was now split between a War Party and a Peace Party, with the latter in power. Prime Minister Konoye called in Ambassador Joseph Grew and secretly offered to meet FDR in Juneau or anywhere in the Pacific. According to Grew, Konoye was willing to give up Indochina and China, except a buffer region in the north to protect her from Stalin, in return for the U.S. brokering a peace with China and opening up the oil pipeline. Konoye told Grew that Emperor Hirohito knew of his initiative and was ready to give the order for Japan’s retreat.
The gumbatsu would never have allowed that to happen. Pipedream.
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Fearful of a “second Munich,” America spurned the offer. Konoye fell from power and was replaced by Hideki Tojo. Still, war was not inevitable. U.S. diplomats prepared to offer Japan a “modus vivendi.” If Japan withdrew from southern Indochina, the United States would partially lift the oil embargo. But Chiang Kai-shek became “hysterical,” and his American adviser, one Owen Lattimore, intervened to abort the proposal.
Facing a choice between death of the empire or fighting for its life, Japan decided to seize the oil fields of the Indies. And the only force capable of interfering was the U.S. fleet that FDR had conveniently moved from San Diego out to Honolulu.
"conveniently"? Are you a conspiracy theorist?
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Invading and occupying Hawaii had no purpose for Japan. Waste of resources for something they didn't need and never wanted.
There whole war was a waste. It started without government sanction and they couldn't get out of it. As Hirohito told the War and Navy Ministers in 1941, "This is the fourth consecutive year you've told me the China Incident will be settled in one year."
isn't debating wars about theories why each side did what they did.......its a chess game......no conspiracy about that.
FDR moved the Pacific Fleet from San Diego to Hawaii against the wishes of the Navy brass. Admiral James O. Richardson, was Commander in Chief of the Fleet as against FDR's move to Hawaii and got fired on February/1941. He was proven right 10 months later.
no conspiracy there unless you know something nobody knows.
isn't debating wars about theories why each side did what they did.......its a chess game......no conspiracy about that.
FDR moved the Pacific Fleet from San Diego to Hawaii against the wishes of the Navy brass. Admiral James O. Richardson, was Commander in Chief of the Fleet as against FDR's move to Hawaii and got fired on February/1941. He was proven right 10 months later.
no conspiracy there unless you know something nobody knows.
Well, you got some of that right. J. O. Richardson complained that the facilities at Pearl were inadequate for the USN Fleet. He testified before Congress that he had never been concerned about an raid on the base. He changed that later when he was no longer under oath.
However, conspiracy theorists (nut bags that they are) claim that FDR was willing to sacrifice the fleet in order to get into a war in the Pacific because we needed to get into a war in the Atlantic. This "back door to war" meme is fundamentally absurd for a lot of reason. I can list them for you if you'd like.
Well, you got some of that right. J. O. Richardson complained that the facilities at Pearl were inadequate for the USN Fleet. He testified before Congress that he had never been concerned about an raid on the base. He changed that later when he was no longer under oath.
However, conspiracy theorists (nut bags that they are) claim that FDR was willing to sacrifice the fleet in order to get into a war in the Pacific because we needed to get into a war in the Atlantic. This "back door to war" meme is fundamentally absurd for a lot of reason. I can list them for you if you'd like.
I would like to read why you think the "back door to war" meme is absurd. Not having studied WWII as intensively as you have (well, few have!) it is at least interesting to me that the IJN attackers were able to reach Pearl without being detected, and that all the carriers (which turned out to be more useful than BBs) were out to sea. Of course the carrier question may be crediting people with knowledge they didn't have in 1941.
I would like to read why you think the "back door to war" meme is absurd. Not having studied WWII as intensively as you have (well, few have!) it is at least interesting to me that the IJN attackers were able to reach Pearl without being detected, and that all the carriers (which turned out to be more useful than BBs) were out to sea. Of course the carrier question may be crediting people with knowledge they didn't have in 1941.
To start with your first two:
The Japanese picked a route that was rarely traveled by ships going from Asia to North America. It was called "The Empty Seas" for that reason. The route had been scouted by Japanese cargo/passenger ships earlier in the year and they confirmed that nobody was using it.
As for the carriers, they were on trips to Wake and Midway to reinforce the garrisons with Marine fighters. The decisions as to when they went were made by Adm. Kimmel, CINCUS, and the two admirals in charge of the task forces, Brown and Halsey. Washington ordered they do this, but did not say how, when or where the carriers would be at any time, that was Kimmel's job.
Here's a chart I borrowed from MacArthur's post war reports, to which I added the locations of the two carriers based on the "noon sightings" from each ship's logbooks. You can see that Enterprise is very close to Hawaii. If it hadn't been for heavy seas that forces her escorting destroyers to slow down she would have been there on the 6th.
Well, you got some of that right. J. O. Richardson complained that the facilities at Pearl were inadequate for the USN Fleet. He testified before Congress that he had never been concerned about an raid on the base. He changed that later when he was no longer under oath.
However, conspiracy theorists (nut bags that they are) claim that FDR was willing to sacrifice the fleet in order to get into a war in the Pacific because we needed to get into a war in the Atlantic. This "back door to war" meme is fundamentally absurd for a lot of reason. I can list them for you if you'd like.
It is also worth noting that the deployment of military hardware means putting them in harm's way. That's why they exist - to help comprise a fighting force, and the eventuality of fighting is ever present. And the stationing of the fleet at Pearl was meant as a signal to the Japanese that American interests in the Pacific would be defended. With that deployment comes risk, sure, but when do deployments not involve risk? Warships are platforms for extending influence. They were doing so at Pearl.
Of course, the same apologists for Imperial Japan who blame the stationing of the fleet at Hawaii as a provocation would - had FDR instead kept the fleet in San Diego - blame him by suggesting that, in refusing to defend Hawaii, he showed weakness and invited the attack.
Though I suspect you are better able to make this case as a whole, I will nonetheless list a couple of the reasons that the idea that it was necessary to induce the Japanese to attack Pearl in order to draw the U.S. into the war was nonsensical:
1) Once the Japanese made their move against the British and the Dutch, it was necessary to attack the United States forces in the Philippines. As evidence, any map of the Pacific Ocean and a modicum of strategic sense will suffice. And attacking American forces in the Philippines would have more than sufficed to bring the U.S. into the war.
2) The American public did not even need an attack on American forces in order to accept war with Japan. As evidence, the following Gallup poll question:
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Interviewing Date 10/24-29/41
Should the United States take steps now to prevent Japan from becoming more powerful, even if this means risking a war with Japan?
Yes................................ 64%
No................................. 25%
No opinion...................... 11%
Simply put, the public was more than ready for measures to curb Japanese expansion, up to and including measures that would lead to American involvement in the Pacific War.
Now for the more complex issues. The March, 1941, ABC talks between the American and British had determined that the policy of both countries should be "Germany First", that everything possible should be done to avoid war with Japan. This policy, set by the military heads of both countries, was confirmed as official policy by Roosevelt and Churchill at the Atlantic Conference that August. (It wasn't officially announced until the Casablanca Conference.)
So, we were focused on Germany and trying to avoid having to fight a two ocean war. We were years from the completion of the Two-Ocean Navy Act. Provoking Japan was not in our plans. We were, in fact, almost purely reactionary to Japan's actions in South East Asia.
Now we come to the "Let It Happen On Purpose" (or LIHOP) theories. It's hard to put this into writing as it is entirely incoherent, so bare with me. It goes "FDR allowed the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor without warning the forces because he thought a big defeat would make the Americans made enough to allow him to declare war on Germany." Exactly how that would work requires mescaline or something to make clear, I think.
However, for LIHOP to work we have to assume that FDR would rather have a defeat than a victory to start the Pacific War that would get us into the war against Germany. We have to picture him saying "a defeat by a surprise attack is better than defeating a surprise attack by forewarning the target of the attack." The conspiracy people skim over the reasons why a defeat is better, mumbling something about "Make the US citizens madder!" Sacrificing the country's fleet would be stupid under any circumstances, but being so short on warships it is a massively bad idea.
But further we have to assume that the former Assistant Secretary of the Navy, a man well-known for his love of our naval forces, would let them be destroyed for an uncertain political outcome. And, of course, one of the people who would have known about this little game would have been his naval attache, a captain who had a son serving on a ship at Pearl Harbor on that day. (Father risks son's life for FDR's nebulous political goals? Sure thing, if you're a conspiracy theorist.)
Can't rep you again so soon Unsettomati. Bravo Zulu anyway.
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