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"It nevertheless should be undeniable, by now, that the regime of Vladi*mir Putin brazenly intervened in U.S. politics, including by hacking the Democratic National Committee and releasing stolen material through the WikiLeaks site; that it is still trying to disrupt the political system, including by sowing fake news and faux controversies on social media; and that it is attempting to disrupt elections in other Western democracies, including France and Germany. The top priority of the president and Congress should be to fully expose this hostile assault and develop means to counter it.
Instead, Mr. Trump appears to be doing his best to confuse the public about the facts and to prevent the truth from coming out. That, of course, is Russia’s agenda — and it is the strangest and most suspicious aspect of his presidency"
The Washington Post (or, as it is commonly called, Pravda on the Potomac) is a propaganda organ for the CIA. How dare President Trump (he should not be referred to as Mr. Trump by the WaPo) "confuse the public" by pointing out Nunes has backed him up, that Obama was spying on Trump.
Stalin certainly was worse for the development of his country and technology and modernization. Sending your best scientists, intellectuals, doctors, etc. into enslavement and destroying their works doesn't bode well for the future.
Hitler's orders caused more deaths.
But you help make my (and our) point! Germans rejected Hitler, rebuilt their country and forged ahead into the future by making use of their intellectual capital and their children. Stalin gutted the country from within both before, during and after the war...and his policies continued, ending in millions enslaved and the entire population behind the Iron Curtain living for generations at a vastly lower level of civilization than could have been.
We are comparing strange things - sure, living or dying is important. But what is the "evil value" of keeping your thumb on 250+ million people for a couple generations while the rest of the world is thriving? As you may have heard, until recently Russian men died at 55 (average).
Many people would rather be dead than living a life of constant paranoia, fear and suffering...and having to stand in line or "know someone" for a decent piece of meat.
The proof is in the pudding. The Russians have a 2nd world economy - they can't innovate and they are reliant 100% of gas and oil and arms sales. Period. Yet they have some of the smartest people in the world....over many generations! Of course, they enslaved, killed and exported a lot of them. That never works out well for the future.
This is why they revel in organized crime, hacking, etc.....it's one of their big industries.
You went off the deep end. Russian lifespan has been increasing dramatically under Putin, after collapsing during the Yeltsin years. US lifespan is now in decline after stagnating for several years.
Russians have developed extremely innovative, and effective weapons. Russia is not reliant 100% on gas and oil and arms sales. Russia has not exported their manufacturing base like the US did, and is self reliant, unlike the US economy. They "enslaved, killed and exported" comment is bizarre. Certainly true during the communist era, but no longer true, since the fall of communism.
No more posts about American politics. This is the History forum. Do not respond to any of the existing posts about politics in America. I left things intact in this thread because the politics references seems to be incidental, until they got quoted and replied to, keeping the political references alive. We have a Politics forum for those topics.
You went off the deep end. Russian lifespan has been increasing dramatically under Putin, after collapsing during the Yeltsin years. US lifespan is now in decline after stagnating for several years.
Russians have developed extremely innovative, and effective weapons. Russia is not reliant 100% on gas and oil and arms sales. Russia has not exported their manufacturing base like the US did, and is self reliant, unlike the US economy. They "enslaved, killed and exported" comment is bizarre. Certainly true during the communist era, but no longer true, since the fall of communism.
Correct, what a lot of people don't recognize is just how far Russia went backwards during the Yeltsin years. Russia came, in some ways, worse than some 3rd world countries. The lifespan during the Yeltsin years was worse than that of Bangladesh. Putin wants his fellow Russians to succeed, he is not promoting communism nor does Putin want communism, Putin wants an Oligarchy with him at the top. The more the Russian people succeed the more popular Putin becomes.
What is sad, is that people in the United States draw their opinion of Russia based on our news, if you want to call it that. They base their ideas on what senators say, these senator may have other agendas, other than creating normal relations with Russia.
Do I see Russia as the boogeyman, no, I do see Russia as opportunistic, in the sense that Russia wants to gain back the status it enjoyed prior to the fall of communism, not that Russia wants communism, it just wants to be tied with the number one power in the world today.
Correct, what a lot of people don't recognize is just how far Russia went backwards during the Yeltsin years. Russia came, in some ways, worse than some 3rd world countries. The lifespan during the Yeltsin years was worse than that of Bangladesh. Putin wants his fellow Russians to succeed, he is not promoting communism nor does Putin want communism, Putin wants an Oligarchy with him at the top. The more the Russian people succeed the more popular Putin becomes.
What is sad, is that people in the United States draw their opinion of Russia based on our news, if you want to call it that. They base their ideas on what senators say, these senator may have other agendas, other than creating normal relations with Russia.
Do I see Russia as the boogeyman, no, I do see Russia as opportunistic, in the sense that Russia wants to gain back the status it enjoyed prior to the fall of communism, not that Russia wants communism, it just wants to be tied with the number one power in the world today.
Post-revolutionary periods are always disorienting. People don't know what to do or whom to follow. Going backwards for a time was inevitable especially under a man who, though a leader of the revolution, couldn't govern after it.
Russia has always aspired to world power status and for 300 years was one. It is impossible and wrong for the rest of the world to ignore its interests or to stop is ascent. I don't think it wants to dominate the world now that is isn't driven by Communism, which it saw at its destiny to impose on everyone else.
I think Russia preferred Trump to Clinton. Clinton had taken hard positions against Russia while Trump indicated he wanted to work on problems with them together, especially in Syria and confronting terrorism. Russia had a clear favorite in this election and it's no wonder it tried to help him.
The Russian people have always had strong rulers, some great and some terrible. They respond to strong leadership by following as long as they believe they are going forward. They've had great Czars, Premiers and I think Putin will prove to be a great President for them, if not for us.
I posted this video many times before, but without it it's impossible to understand specific problems of the country, and why it simply can't achieve the same level of affluence as Western countries. Because, as it's rightfully mentioned here - "Geography determines destiny."
That’s a good video. Geography assuredly has strong role in shaping “destiny”, but it is not dispositive. Consider for example that the geography of the US and of England are vastly different, and yet those two nations having quite similar histories and national identities – because of ethnic, cultural and linguistic similarity. And the geography of the US and Mexico are quite similar (two large nations sharing a long boarder, but otherwise isolated, each with a Pacific and Atlantic coast), yet in terms of affluence, place in the world, etc., they are markedly different.
A Russia with a tall belt of mountains to the east and south of its “European” core would have been shielded from Mongol invasions, and likely would have been more westernized instead of held back, during the centuries of Mongol suzerainty. But consider the problem of the European Plain, as noted in the video. Poland was right in the middle of the invasion-path, and indeed its history is marked by being conquered from West or East, to the detriment of its national sovereignty. And yet we think of Poland as being unquestionably European and aligned with the West. Likewise the Baltics. Why then not Russia?
One possibility is religion – the particularly pugnacious conservatism of Eastern Orthodoxy. Another, so frequently cited in the West (and in Russian poetry) is the persistent winter doldrums, and what it does to the psyche. I don’t have any particularly insightful thoughts or my own pet conjecture, but it does seem to me that Russia is peculiar, and peculiar not merely for reasons of geography. However, that peculiarity ought not to brand it as being particularly bellicose or brutal – as is, evidently, the predicate of this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan
Post-revolutionary periods are always disorienting. People don't know what to do or whom to follow. Going backwards for a time was inevitable especially under a man who, though a leader of the revolution, couldn't govern after it.
Periods of heady change are of course disorienting, but the sheer quantity of chaos, disorder, setback and debilitation in 1990s ex-USSR republics (with the notable exception of the Baltics) is shocking. Consider by way of counterexample the American and English revolutions. The latter in particular was bloody and disorienting, culminating in the execution of a king. But did the standard of living decline substantially, and for a long time? The collapse of the USSR in 1991 was relatively bloodless - and yet, the consequences for the average Russian were nothing short of horrendous.
Last edited by ohio_peasant; 04-02-2017 at 03:20 PM..
That’s a good video. Geography assuredly has strong role in shaping “destiny”, but it is not dispositive. Consider for example that the geography of the US and of England are vastly different, and yet those two nations having quite similar histories and national identities – because of ethnic, cultural and linguistic similarity. And the geography of the US and Mexico are quite similar (two large nations sharing a long boarder, but otherwise isolated, each with a Pacific and Atlantic coast), yet in terms of affluence, place in the world, etc., they are markedly different.
A Russia with a tall belt of mountains to east and south of its “European” core would have been shielded from Mongol invasions, and likely would have been more westernized instead of held back, during the centuries of Mongol suzerainty. But consider the problem of the European Plain, as noted in the video. Poland was right in the middle of the invasion-path, and indeed its history is marked by being conquered from West or East, to the detriment of its national sovereignty. And yet we think of Poland as being unquestionably European and aligned with the West. Likewise the Baltics. Why then not Russia?
One possibility is religion – the particularly pugnacious conservatism of Eastern Orthodoxy. Another, so frequently cited in the West (and in Russian poetry) is the persistent winter doldrums, and what it does to the psyche. I don’t have any particularly insightful thoughts or my own pet conjecture, but it does seem to me that Russia is peculiar, and peculiar not merely for reasons of geography. However, that peculiarity ought not to brand it as being particularly bellicose or brutal – as is, evidently, the predicate of this thread.
Periods of heady change are of course disorienting, but the sheer quantity of chaos, disorder, setback and debilitation in 1990s ex-USSR republics (with the notable exception of the Baltics) is shocking. Consider by way of counterexample the American and English revolutions. The latter in particular was bloody and disorienting, culminating in the execution of a king. But the standard of living decline substantially and for a long time? The collapse of the USSR in 1991 was relatively bloodless - and yet, the consequences for the average Russian were nothing short of horrendous.
"Shock therapy" embracing capitalism all at once, was a big mistake, as far as the health and welfare of most of the people of the former Soviet Union were concerned. They went from having jobs, to having no jobs. Oligarchs looted the country, then moved to London or the French Riviera. A gradual transition to a market economy would have been far more humane.
Russians are no different than other Europeans. To say they are, seems to be a twisted form of racism. For savagery, consider the 30 years war. The Russian Revolution was a 5 million person bloodbath, well, that was communism in all its evil glory.
Post-revolutionary periods are always disorienting. People don't know what to do or whom to follow. Going backwards for a time was inevitable especially under a man who, though a leader of the revolution, couldn't govern after it.
Russia has always aspired to world power status and for 300 years was one. It is impossible and wrong for the rest of the world to ignore its interests or to stop is ascent. I don't think it wants to dominate the world now that is isn't driven by Communism, which it saw at its destiny to impose on everyone else.
I think Russia preferred Trump to Clinton. Clinton had taken hard positions against Russia while Trump indicated he wanted to work on problems with them together, especially in Syria and confronting terrorism. Russia had a clear favorite in this election and it's no wonder it tried to help him.
The Russian people have always had strong rulers, some great and some terrible. They respond to strong leadership by following as long as they believe they are going forward. They've had great Czars, Premiers and I think Putin will prove to be a great President for them, if not for us.
I agree, I do believe that Putin saw Trumps as someone he could deal with. Clinton on the other hand is pretty set in her ways as a politician and she has the mindset of a number of politicians in regard to dealing with Russia.
I do agree that Russia has no desire to rule the world, Putin will do anything as long as it benefits Russia and the Russian people. I do think that it high time that our government stop viewing Russia as the enemy, this would go a long way in U.S. and Russian relations.
No more posts about American politics. This is the History forum. Do not respond to any of the existing posts about politics in America. I left things intact in this thread because the politics references seems to be incidental, until they got quoted and replied to, keeping the political references alive. We have a Politics forum for those topics.
I don't want to have to close the thread, but further mention of current political persons will result in the end of this discussion.
You need to calm yourself. The OP brought up the topic of Russian violence and many people chimed in with the bloody histories of the U.S. and U.K. I don't think anyone is saying the U.S. and U.K. are the most evil people in the world People are trying to bring up comparisons of which nations have committed more heinous acts of evil. Quite frankly if you have blood on your hands you don't have much moral high ground to call out the atrocities committed by other nations.
But that's EXACTLY what (some) people are trying to claim, go back and re-read the posts I was responding too, like you I am simply pointing out that NO nationality or human 'group' is in a position to hold a moral high ground, and that includes against Russia, the US and yes the UK.
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